You're the Pipe, Not the Water: Serving Community Through Folk Magic with Jake Richards

Jake Richards, conjureman from Appalachia, joins us to explore the rich traditions of folk magic, faith healing, and Decoration Day practices from the mountain communities of Upper East Tennessee. 

• Distinguishing between witches, faith healers, and conjure men in Appalachian tradition
• Using the Bible as a magical tool, especially the Book of Psalms for various spiritual purposes
• Exploring Decoration Day rituals for honoring and remembering the dead
• Traditional Appalachian graveyards as swept dirt yards with mounded graves
• The importance of community service in folk magic rather than self-centered practice
• Family influences on Jake's practice, including his Nana and great-grandmother
• Advice for new practitioners: learn your local land, plants, animals and ancestral stories
• Jake is currently working on his fourth book to add to his "Backwoods Library"

Visit greenspacereadings.com for tarot readings, spell assistance, or custom journals with Alana, a psychic tarot reader and Reiki practitioner with six-plus years of experience.

Follow Jake for more!

Website: Holy Stones and Iron Bones

Instagram: instagram.com/appalachianwaywardson/

Chapters

• 0:04 Welcome to Your Average Witch
• 0:33 Introducing Jake Richards, Conjure Man
• 9:42 Bible-Based Folk Magic in Appalachia
• 16:00 Decoration Day: Honoring the Dead
• 21:34 Community and Service in Folk Magic
• 28:37 Family Influences and Ancestral Wisdom
• 39:57 New Book and Final Stories
• 47:37 Bonus Content Preview

Transcript

Kimothy: 0:04

Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where every other Tuesday, we talk about witch life, witch stories and sometimes a little witchcraft. This episode of Your Average Witch is brought to you by Green Space Readings. Whether you need a tarot reading, assistance with a spell, or a custom journal, Green Space Readings can help you out. Allanah is a psychic tarot reader, a Reiki practitioner with six-plus years experience, and specializes in long-distance readings. Visit greenspacereadings.com to learn more. This week I'm talking with Jake Richards, an author and conjureman from Appalachia. We talked about Decoration Day, the Bible, and family. Now let's get to the stories. Hello, Jake, welcome to the show.

Jake: 0:53

Thank you for having me. 

Kimothy: 0:54

Thank you for being here. I have wanted to have you on since 2021.

Jake: 1:00

Oh my lord.

Kimothy: 1:02

I'm excited. Anyway, how are you doing?

Jake: 1:07

I'm doing good. How are you?

Kimothy: 1:09

I am awesome. Can you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you?

Jake: 1:14

Yeah, my name is Jake and I was born and raised in Upper East Tennessee. I'm on the old hunting grounds of the Cherokee, but I also spent a good amount of my childhood in southwest Virginia and western North Carolina and my work mostly focuses on Appalachian folk traditions, whether that's Appalachian folk medicine, folk magic, folk religion, faith, healing, kind of that whole area.

Kimothy: 1:44

Everybody be sure to jump down below to follow Jake everywhere on socials. There will be a link. Can you tell me what it means to you when you call yourself a witch? If you do.

Jake: 1:54

Well, I don't really call myself one. Other people may, other people see me as, like, just a folk or a faith healer. Others see me as a conjure man because the work I do is based in Appalachian practices. there's a there's different, varying degrees to whether, what you do makes you a witch in the traditional folkloric sense, or what you do makes you more of a faith healer. But folks will usually just understand me in the lens that they're seeing it from. That's why I named my first book Backwards Witchcraft, because from the outside it all looks like witchcraft at first, before you get down to the technicalities of it.

Kimothy: 2:42

Which term do you prefer?

Jake: 2:50

I usually stick with just conjure man, because the conjure man kind of, or like the term conjurer kind of embodies all of it. So the conjurer could be found to be using herbs for healing, like medicinally. But they can also be using herbs for other spiritual purposes as well, whether that's to bring luck, love, money, protection, anything like that. But then they would also simply use verbal charms or verbal prayers for faith healing.

Jake: 3:20

Whereas in Appalachia, the traditional sense, a witch was believed to be someone who was working, their powers came from the devil and not from God, the conjure man was kind of in between the faith healer, whose powers and authority did come from God, was kind of between the faith healer and the witch, in the sense that the conjure man's work was for hire. His work could be either to harm or to heal. So between the witch, the faith healer and the conjure man, the conjure man kind of warranted a lot more respect because of how the practice goes, you never knew exactly how your standing was with him, whereas everybody knew about the witch. But you know, you know they worked with the devil, or so you know, people said, but with the conjure man. It was always a question of like his work in the community. Does that make sense?

Kimothy: 4:29

Yeah, so when I'm talking about your practice, is there a term you'd prefer me to use, or can I, is it- Are you okay with the term practice?

Jake: 4:38

Yeah, that's fine. Or just you know Appalachian folk magic, whatever it's kind of you know, basically so old it doesn't really have like a proper name. I mean, it's been called trying, it's been called doctoring, fixing, working roots. You know all sorts of things. 

Kimothy: 5:02

Can you tell us about how you do it? Any little, if you have any consistent things you do, can you share it with us? 

Jake: 5:10

Not necessarily evangelical, christian, that whole type of toxic deal, but more so surrounding, like the mountain faiths that kind of developed here, whether you're talking about like the old, primitive Baptist or you know, holiness, Pentecostals or even snake handling.

Kimothy: 5:46

Have you done it?

Jake: 5:49

I'm sorry?

Kimothy: 5:50

Have you done any snake handling? 

Jake: 5:52

Oh lord, no, I've always wanted to go to one, but they wouldn't let me. I mean, we, we followed, you know, the whole laying on of hands and casting out demons and things like that, but we never. Nana wouldn't, Nana wouldn't like, she couldn't stand snakes.

Kimothy: 6:12

I don't think my grandmothers liked them either.

Jake: 6:15

Yeah, but a lot of the practice is based on the Bible itself, and it's kind of based on a kind of a more loose folkloric interpretation in some sense, but then also there's a sense of a more rigid structure surrounding it, sticking steadfast to the dogma as you do with modern-day evangelists and stuff. There is a little bit more leeway when it comes to superstitions or even using the Bible itself as a divination tool working in and of itself, because you know you can.

Jake: 7:03

My grandmother's bible always had like little baby's booties, like the little, little tiny socks. Yeah and she'd always keep them in the bible, at the portion in, I believe it's the book of Matthew where he talks about do not, do not let the little children suffer to come unto me. Basically talking about you know, to enter the kingdom of God, you must be as children.

Kimothy: 7:32

Like a bookmark, she used it?

Jake: 7:34

Yeah, and because it was placed at that particular verse, it was believed that, you know, whatever child that little sock belonged to would be protected. He has sent his angels to have charge over them. You know that whole type of thing.

Kimothy: 7:51

That's interesting. Huh.

Jake: 7:57

Yeah, you can- basically the most traditional working setup in Appalachian folk magic. All you need is a Bible, you know, a candle, which was traditionally a white taper candle before you know, stores in Appalachia started selling these vigil candles, and then you would have a glass of water, but the glass of water would only turn out whenever you were actually doing work. And so, you know, you could just have your little working set up as just nothing but a Bible and a candle you know, say out on a table with a living room, over like a white cloth or a doily, and then, whenever need be, you could set the water out.

Jake: 8:38

Or, if you were just leaving offerings for, like, the ancestors or something like that, you could just set out a random, set out a random cup of coffee or a cup of tea, or even a cup of whiskey or something, and then that way it just looks like you had been drinking something and you left it somewhere, and it didn't look too overly... 

Kimothy: 8:58

Sketch.

Jake: 9:00

Yeah, sketch, yeah, because for the past 150 years we've had missionaries coming into Appalachia telling us that our, you know, decoration day practices were necromancy and the ghosts of our ancestors are actually demons and you know all this other toxic stuff. So yeah, it was just kind of a way to still have it out there open, because you know that sense of independence, we ain't hiding shit, but at the same time you know we don't need everybody and their mama you know, knowing what goes on behind closed doors.

Kimothy: 9:34

Can you explain Decorating Day to people who don't know?

Jake: 9:38

Yeah, so Decoration Day was. It wasn't exactly like an exact set date, but it was kind of like the Appalachian version of the Mexican Day of the Dead. Decoration Day was traditionally done. Most communities did it in the spring, so first they would, it was usually on a Sunday, so they would pick the third Sunday in May or something like that Sunday. So they would pick like the third Sunday in May or something like that, and these were just individual communities. So it was like the church would have their own decoration day and then down the road a different church or a different community would have their annual day that they would do it. So they would pick a day and then the day before that day they would go and they would basically clean up the cemetery. They would make it look all nice, remove any leaves or branches or anything from the graveyard. That way it was all set up and pretty and cleaned up for the gathering that was supposed to happen the next day. But it was basically just a day where we gathered to.

Jake: 10:47

For some communities it was just a day of remembrance, of remembering our dead and placing flowers on the grave, bringing offerings like toys if it was a child that had passed.

Jake: 10:57

But then other times other communities would even go so far as re-funeralizing the dead, so far as re-funeralizing the dead, so they would have another funeral service for the dead every year, all of the dead altogether, not like every individual grave.

Jake: 11:10

That would take forever, and they would essentially just recommit them to the ground. In a sense of, it was kind of like a folk ritual to help both the living and the dead come to terms with grief and mourning, because every year we would return and we would recommit the body to the ground and the spirit to the Lord who sent it. We would decorate the graves with flowers, whether that's paper mache, flowers that we made or wildflowers that we picked or anything like that, and those were to be a symbol of, basically, the resurrection of the body. And that's how the graves back then were traditionally laid out. Before cemeteries became public and we handed over the care of our dead to funeral homes, they were laid out as Christ was laid, meaning his head was to the west and his feet to the east. That way, when Gabriel sounds the trumpet for the end of days, the day of judgment, and all the dead rise up, they can see Christ coming down from the eastern sky.

Kimothy: 12:30

I didn't know this part. I didn't know the part about directions, I didn't know all that stuff.

Jake: 12:32

Yeah, there's, there's so much more to it other-

Kimothy: 12:34

That's cool!

Jake: 12:35

 Yeah it actually inspired Memorial Day, for originally in the northern portions of Appalachia, like New York, Pennsylvania, but theirs was to simply acknowledge and celebrate the military like soldiers who had died, especially just after the Civil War. But no, in southern Appalachia the traditions go way deeper. Our graveyards were not grass lawns, they were traditionally, they basically mirrored our homes, because our homes didn't originally have grass lawns, they were swept yards, meaning they were simply swept and packed dirt yards. That way there was. It was done for like a multitude of reasons.

Jake: 13:21

Because, like, if you had cattle or some other livestock on the land, having a swept dirt yard would basically make it to where cattle don't veer too close to the home. In grazing Grass, trying to upkeep a lawn before the lawnmower was invented was extremely hard and unless you could pay somebody to essentially hand cut the grass every so often and you know, generally people weren't that wealthy. So they said get rid of the damn grass, we mean we don't need it. But it also kept the you know tall grasses far away from the house to keep away snakes and poisonous plants for the children?

Kimothy: 14:01

Yeah, and then you'll be in snakes so no thank you. 

Jake: 14:07

Yeah, exactly. The grandmothers did not need all that damn hassle, but, that would. That also made, you know, room in the yard for like family gatherings, for soap making, for washing laundry, for even cooking or just, you know, making apple butter in the big apple butter… it was like the big cauldron looking things. So, yeah, served a bunch of purposes. But we also kept the graveyard the same way as well, and the upkeep that we did for the graveyards was we would take, you know, the livestock, whether it was goats or sheep, and we would take them into the graveyard to basically eat up all the grass, because the graveyards were simply dirt areas. It afforded, again, a lot of room to gather and the children could run around and play without people worrying about them stepping on a snake or stepping on a briar or getting into poisonous things that they shouldn't be.

Jake: 15:05

But then there was also the tradition of mounding the graves.

Jake: 15:08

So we would heap the dirt up along the entire length of the grave about a foot off the ground, and it was into this mound that we would stick the bouquets of flowers and stuff like that, going down in a row which was to mimic the rows of corn and stuff like that, going down in a row, which was to mimic the rows of corn. Again a symbol of resurrection rising from the depths.

Jake: 15:33

And then that's also how, in the very beginning of this practice, as it was amalgamating from the Scots-Irish, the indigenous Cherokee and the enslaved folks who were brought here and it was all melding together. That's why graveyard dirt came to be used so much, because it was so readily available. And then we would go so far as to we would mound up the dirt and then we would even gather pebbles or sand and cover it over the mound itself to kind of kind of bring kind of an individual sense to each individual grave. And it kind of made it to the point where, you know, when the whole graveyard was like that, you know you could stand in a graveyard and you could get this feeling that you were not alone, as opposed to graveyards today where it's nothing but grass, lawns and flat land. It just looks like a bunch of headstones in the ground. So even after death, they still had their, they were still afforded that personable presence, if that makes sense. That's interesting.

Kimothy: 16:43

That's interesting. Thanks. Can you tell me what your biggest motivator is in your practice? 

Jake: 17:01

Probably, because of the day and age that we live in, with the internet and the age of misinformation, it would probably be keeping it alive and as true to its history as it can be. Especially in you know, current economy and everything like that that's currently poisoning our rivers and creeks and flattening our mountains, because, you know, with mountaintop removal we've lost 500 mountains at this point, and then all the non-usable resource portions are just dumped into rivers and creeks and valleys and everything like that which, you know, endangers so many species in the creeks, and, you know, low growing plants and everything like that. A big portion of this tradition isn't like others, where it's. How can I use this or what can I use this for? How can I do it this way? It's more so about a relationship between us and the mountains, because you know everything is connected and everything you know deserves respect, and that that's still something true, I mean.

Jake: 18:17

I know hunting is, you know, generally falling out as like a sport. Not many people are going hunting anymore, uh, but all the hunters that I knew growing up they would like if it was like an old buck who had like a like a monster rack, but he was extremely old in his years. They would let him go on by because he had earned his place or, like earned his right to have a natural death.

Kimothy: 18:44

That's nice.

Jake: 18:46

Especially with albino deer. Albino deer are here, anyway, said to be extremely bad luck to kill or harm or mess with in any way.

Kimothy: 19:01

Hmm, my family did not hunt, but I remember being in school and the guys would all get like the first three days off for hunting season.

Jake: 19:16

Yeah, yeah, that's all we did growing up because you, you know, we was real poor. So all we basically ate and survived off of was either fishing for, like bass and rainbow trout or, you know, hunting.

Kimothy: 19:34

Exactly.

Jake: 19:35

So I grew up on a fridge full of nothing but venison and I got so sick of it. It was so easy to get sick of it. There's only so many ways you can cook a rainbow trout.

Kimothy: 19:49

I am not a fish eater, so I cannot even fathom. What is something that you wish more people would ask you about?

Jake: 20:15

Probably to go off the last question, the whole, you know, they always ask how can I do this or what can I do for this, and there's never like a, there's never a question as to why. And folk magic is very based on community because it was born out of community and it was born out of a out of service to community, whether that was through the folk killer who was whispering a charm to stop the flow of blood during, like, an axe accident or, you know, a lumber accident, something like that axe accident I don't know terrible, you never know, I know.

Kimothy: 20:46

I've wielded a couple.

Jake: 20:48

See how that happens or you know something like that that could be life threatening or put you out of work, something like that, because you know whether it was, you know the conjure man, the herb doctor, or yarb doctor, as it was called, or the faith healer, which was also sometimes called a power doctor, because that was like a corruption of the term powwow, which is the term for faith healers in Northern Appalachia. In their traditions, it just kind of went from being powwow to power. Still kind of made sense, though. Cause, though, because you're calling on the power to heal, all of them usually had a calling to it and it often wasn't of their own choice, much like our mountain preachers did and do have.

Jake: 21:41

You're going to fight it at first, and then that's kind of like the first death throes of your ego, because you can't have that sense of what can I do for me? What can I do for me and my people? It can’t always be me, me, me. When you truly go to lay hands on someone in faith or going in prayer to recommend them to the Spirit, whether it's for luck, love, money, whatever, you have to set yourself aside to let the power flow. It's kind of like what is needed is water, and you are just the pipe, you're not the water. Does that make sense?

Kimothy: 22:23

Yes, what a good analogy! 

Jake: 22:26

You're just kind of like letting it flow and it can't flow if you're in the way of it.

Kimothy: 22:28

That's a really good- I like that a lot!

Jake: 22:32

And that works the same way with like divination too, because I, you know, I'll read  playing cards for folks and I also, do bone throwing. And when you get in the way of that, you're getting in the way of the things they need and the answers they're searching and seeking for. So again, you have to just get the hell out of the way and just let it go and let it be its thing and then just let it go from there.

Kimothy: 23:07

That's so interesting. Well, I would like you to think of your favorite tool, whether it's a physical thing, like a book or some kind, I don't know a rock, a crystal, whatever, or if it's like more, like a color or a philosophy, what is your favorite tool and how do you use it in your practice?

Jake: 23:30

No, that's a hard one. I would probably just have to say you know my family King James Bible, because you know there's, so there's so many things in it. You know, especially the book of Psalms. The book of Psalms itself is, you know, what you would call a spell book. There's curses in it, there's blessings in it, there's words of power for money, luck, health, for livestock. Anything that you can think of as it pertains to human life can be found there, as well as other books of the Bible. Even in the book of Deuteronomy there's a, a blessing that blesses you You're going out and you're coming in, and you will be the head and not the tail, and you will be above and not below Kind of just an overall prayer for success that a lot of people today still have hanging in their homes as like a charm itself over the whole house.

Kimothy: 24:41

I was wondering if you were going to say Bible. 

Jake: 24:45

Well, not only that, but a way I was taught was you know if you're doing you know a lot of people know about. I think it's called- yeah, it's called Bibliomancy, where you just, you know, open up, you ask a question and you open up a book to you know a random portion, and then you know whatever word your eyes land on is your answer. Well, with the Bible, it of the New Testament, and your eyes find the words where Christ said it is done, or anything like that, where his words are written in red, then that is a steadfast answer of yes, it will come to pass.

Kimothy: 25:41

I remember those little tiny Bibles. They gave me one when I was in the Army.

Jake: 25:46

Yeah, with the New Testament and Psalms. Uh-huh, uh-huh  

Kimothy: 25:50

I haven’t thought about that in a minute. 

Jake: 25:52

Yep, you can put people's pictures in the Bible, put them upside down if you don't like them, tear them in half and put them in different portions of the Bible to confuse them. You can do a lot with the Bible.

Kimothy: 26:09

I didn't think of that, that’s a good one. What's something you wish was discussed more in the magical community?

Jake: 26:21

I think a lot of, because we all know that the magical community can be pretty, really toxic. And I think it all again stems down to the selfishness that is rampant throughout, because everybody wants to fan and feed their own ego. They want to be right, they want to be the top dog kind of. They want to be right, they want to be, you know, the top dog kind of. So there's more so that sense of service to self as opposed to service to others. You're focused on what everybody else is bringing to the table and you haven't prepared your dish yet, or you're trying to hog your dish to yourself instead of sharing in service to others.

Kimothy: 27:12

How much am I here for the potluck analogy?

Jake: 27:16

Listen .I grew up Free Will Baptist.

Kimothy: 27:17

I am a Taurus. Give me all of that. That's where you get the best food, at a church potluck.

Jake: 27:26

Especially after you wait five hours for the sermon to be done!

Kimothy: 27:30

Oh no!

Jake: 27:32

 Everybody's starving at that point, and they'll eat anything. I like that like you get to that point where, like, do y'all go home? Or I know it was a good sermon, but I'm starving. Y'all meet up at the ass crack of dawn.

Kimothy: 27:54

I agree, though I mean I do feel like emphasis on outside yourself is important. So random question, We'd have a lot less witch wars, if that was the case.

Kimothy: 28:12

Oh my gosh. Yeah, okay, so random question, sort of related to that that I've. Hold on, I've forgotten it. Hold, I know I'm going to ask it. It'll come back up in a minute. Let me think of what it is. Okay, I remember. Random question: how do you feel about charging for it, cause I know some people think, oh, you shouldn't, you shouldn't charge people for that. I have a differing opinion. What do you think about it? Because I know some people think, oh, you shouldn't charge people for that. I have a differing opinion. What do you think about it?

Jake: 28:48

So not charging for it is... It depends on what it is in Appalachian folk magic Because when it comes to like fortune telling with playing cards or reading the bones or anything like that, it kind of depended on the person. Sometimes you know money would be expected, other times money would also be expected but it could not change hands. So people would often have you know their Bible right next to them and the person would just flip the cash into the Bible. But with any kind of faith healing or folk healing like that, no money was to be accepted for any purpose at all, because both the faith healers, whenever they would travel around, were a lot like the circuit riding preachers who would travel around and they mimicked their calling and their work itself.

Jake: 29:53

After the New Testament, when Christ sent out his disciples two by two and told them to take nothing with you, essentially don't, you know, essentially don't pack food to try and care for yourself or anything like that, which was a callback to his sermon on the mount when he talked about how you know the Lord. You know, see the sparrows, how they, you know, tarry not the Lord. You know the Lord feeds them. How greater are you than you know one of these? Whether it's the lily of the field or lord, you know the lord feeds them. How greater are you than you know one of these, whether it's the lily of the field or you know the sparrow? I'm basically trying to teach them to rely on, the creator as provider. So that's what the circuit riders and stuff would do, is they would take, you know, necessities with them, like some kind of bedding or anything like that, and then you know their Bible and stuff, but then all their food and everything was simply gotten by the generosity of, you know, the communities that they went into.

Kimothy: 30:58

Well, there is a saying that says the Lord will provide.

Jake: 31:01

Yeah, but then, you know, you know, the witch of course would, you know, take some kind of money or something like that, as well as the conjure man, because he was, you know, for hire generally, but it wasn't always necessarily money, sometimes it was simply, a barter and trade situation, so you could have taken them tobacco, or offer them a head of your livestock or anything like that, and that tradition spans back to even the Cherokee, whose medicine people would only accept bits of cloth and beads for their time and their services.

Kimothy: 31:53

I won't pretend that I wouldn't do some work for a good chicken. Popeye’s.

Jake: 31:57

Honestly, though. I mean, I've been paid in chickens, I've been paid with a turkey, I've been paid with tobacco. The chicken was, she was a client of mine and I told her not to worry about the glass card reading. But she insisted and one of her chickens had gotten attacked by a hawk, but it survived. But because it's I guess it's like its neck got infected or something the other chickens pecked it to death and she didn't want the chicken to go to waste, basically, so yeah, she just brought it over to me in a trash bag.

Kimothy: 32:35

Oh, chickens are assholes though thank you, they really can be mean as shit. Would you say that you have worked on building community, local, in-person community near you, and, if so, what have you done that maybe you can share to help others, inspire other people to do it or help them figure out how to do it themselves?

Jake: 33:10

I mean, I've kind of done my best whenever I could, especially because the main focus of the community that I've been brought into is in regards to Appalachian folk traditions. So the main focus that I try to do is to not only be of service to people but to also educate them at the same time, because there's a lot of misinformation surrounding not only Appalachian like horror aesthetic surrounding Appalachia, where which paints mountain folk as being some kind of like people who are scared of the dark and you know, scared to look out their windows and you know all that, all that type of stuff. Um, so it's more so on the focus of learning about and getting a feel for the true culture itself, as opposed to what you just read online like actually interact with you know people from this area instead of just a random tiktok video.

Kimothy:

Or Old Gods of Appalachia. 

Jake: 34:23

Yeah, I don't, which- I mean… you know, it's obviously fiction. I don't know why people are trying to paint it as being real.

Kimothy: 34:25

Because they're from California and don't know. 

Jake: 34:40

Yeah, or here. Most of my steps put off concrete. That's a wildlife or you know. Especially because you know I am, I do try to have a good presence in any kind of like online Appalachian community, especially when it pertains to magic, and there's there's always this season right around March and February when we get all these like posts and people saying, hey, I just heard random screaming in the woods. I think there's like a monster cryptid on my property. And it's like it's bobcat mating season. What you're hearing is like, they're mating or they're calling out for a mate.

Kimothy: 35:22

Or foxes scream.

Jake: 35:24

Yeah, or even mountain lions. I know a lot of people say we don't have mountain lions, but I believe we do.

Kimothy: 35:32

Have you heard of barn owl when they're mad? That is terrifying.

Jake: 35:38

Yeah.

Kimothy: 35:39

If you hear that out in the woods, good Lord, I'm not going out there.

Jake: 35:45

We had a giant great horned owl here on the property a couple years ago and I just, I just heard like faint hooting outside and so I stepped outside and in this tree in the yard it's about what, maybe 20 yards away. It was in the wintertime so all the branches and stuff were bare, but it was also that kind of winter season where the skies kind of lit up so you can basically see everything still, and the biggest owl I have ever seen just flew off. Its wingspan had to be about five feet. 

Kimothy: 36:10

I do love an owl. 

Jake: 36:11

It was the absolute biggest bird I have ever seen in my life.

Kimothy: 36:26

They're so neat. 

Jake: 36:28

Yeah, it was very ominous.

Kimothy: 36:36

Okay, now I want you to think about the three biggest influences on your practice, whether it's people or animals, or deity or a book you read once, whatever, thank them for the effects they have on your practice or on you.

Jake: 36:55

I mean, the first would have to be you know my Nana Um, because I mean she. You know I didn't just learn about the, you know, the physical things of this work, like the, the Bible and the candle and everything like that. She also taught me how to carry, you know, empathy, strength, resilience and pain all in the same bag without growing weary. You know she, she knew how to hold her own and that's how she lived her life. The second would probably be obviously my mother, for teaching me how self-worth and humility can be in a beneficial balance without the ugly head of selfishness or self period or self pity rearing up. So yeah, but both of them combined, kind of, you know, made me who I am, not only in my practice but also as a person. And then the third biggest influence… Now I'm blanking.

Kimothy: 38:14

Any plants that you like to work with? Would it be the Bible?

Jake: 38:22

I'd probably have to say my great-grandmother, because she was one of the sweetest women who ever lived in my mind, because some of my greatest childhood memories are up on the mountain and you know, just playing in the creek and stuff at her house. She just kind of had this. I don't remember her going to church a lot, but I know she had a kind of silent, resilient faith. I don't know, it was just, it was just something about her and you know the way she lived her life. That it just, it was just something about her and you know the way she lived her life. That it was. It was kind of like the… both the solution and the cure for all the oppression that, you know, Appalachian people have faced. I guess just strong roots in general. 

Kimothy: 39:18

That’s important.

Jake: 30:20

Yeah, yep.

Kimothy: 39:23

Do you have any advice for new practitioners?

Jake: 39:50

I would probably start with getting to know the land and its history. Like you said, the plants and the animals that call it home, their behaviors, how they behave in their environment and how that environment also not only influences them but is influenced by them as well as the people who lived there before you in their history. That will kind of introduce you into the circle of life that is all around you in your own local community and how you can be an integrated part of it. Story of the land, I would say look into your own story and your ancestor stories and, you know, spend time with your. You know your dealer departed, whether it's, you know, at your ancestor shrine or even at their grave, and in remembering them you will eventually learn to see them within yourself and how you are, like a, a patchwork quilt made up of their different quirks and behaviors and likes and dislikes and the way you handle the, the way you handle certain situations, and you know stuff like that does that make sense that way looking at it.

Kimothy: 41:03

Yeah, I like that. So now that you've seen what it's like to talk to me and you've seen what the questions are like, who do you think would be interesting for me to have on the show?

Jake: 41:26

Lord, I don’t know. I'd probably say Patrick Don Moyer. He's done a lot of work with the folk traditions and folkways in northern Appalachia and I haven't seen a lot of podcasts with him on it.

Kimothy: 41:39

Awesome. Thank you, I will look him up. That question is absolutely me fishing for guest suggestions.

Jake: 41:48

Ain't no shame in that.

Kimothy: 41:50

Well, is there anything else you wanted to talk about? Anything I didn't ask, any questions you had for me, anything going on with you that you want to share?

Jake: 42:01

Not much, I'm just I'm currently working on book number four, which will be soon added to the Backwoods Library, as I like to call all of my works. So I mean, you can you know, everybody can follow me on my socials, whether that's Facebook, instagram, you know, whatever to like, keep up to date with it. Every now and then I'll post like a little snippet, or, you you know, a paragraph here and there of the book. Uh, to you know, kind of give you guys a a feel for what it's going to be about, without giving out all the details and telling you where my horse is tied up I haven't heard that one before you're in.

Kimothy: 42:48

Is it Appalachian Mountain Witchcraft? Is that the group on Facebook?

Jake: 42:54

The Appalachian Mountain Witch? Yeah yeah, I'm one of the admins of it.

Kimberly: 43:02

So we can find you there too?

Jake: 43:04

Yeah, I mean technically. I do also run a blog on Appalachian folk magic that I've been running for a few years now, called Holy Stones and Iron Bones.

Kimothy: 43:16

That's a good one. That's a good, I like that. The last two things that I ask of guests… Well, there are two things that I ask of guests. Two things left, and thing number one is recommend something. Doesn't have to be magical related at all, Just whatever thing you're into this week, share it and recommend it.

Jake: 43:39

Girl, I got ADHD. I don't know. Recommend something…

Kimothy: 43:45

Here I'll do it. Cadbury mini eggs. It's Cadbury mini eggs season, everyone. Go get you that.

Jake: 43:50

That is true.

Kimothy: 43:54

Did I order a five pound bag of them? Yes, I did so. The second thing is please tell me a story. It can be a story you heard growing up, or it could be something wild that happened to you that you like telling.

Jake: 44:10

Okay, well, one I like to tell nobody ever believes me, but I swear it was true was growing up on, on the mountain at my mom's house. My great grandmother, she lived in Mitchell county and from her front porch you could see the very tip top of Mitchell mountain, which is the highest point east of the Mississippi. But down in the front yard in the holler, there was a big weeping willow tree that had an iron swing set underneath it that you know, she would go and sit on. But then in front of the, or like next to the willow tree, was this big pond and there was a little tiny black bridge going in the middle of the pond. So the pond was kind of shaped like an infinity symbol and then in the middle is where the bridge crossed.

Jake: 45:04

But when I was little, like I was maybe five years old… they would always tell me not to get too close to the water because there was a giant fish in there and he'd eat me. And even at five years old I didn't believe adults. I was like you're lying, there's no giant fish in there. But the one of the last times that I was by that pond I finally saw that fish and it was a... It was like a giant catfish, but it was albino and it had to be at least six feet, like, in length. And then there was another, another kind of normal brownish catfish in with it, and it always reminds me of like the like, kind of like the yin yang symbol, the way they would swim sometimes. But yeah, that fish was ginormous, he could have easily eaten five-year-old Jake. And the only thing that you would have heard, was the ducks quacking.

Kimothy: 46:00

I remember stories of monster catfish at Smith Mountain Lake.

Jake: 46:05

I do.

Kimothy: 46:06

They're like big old goldfish.

Jake: 46:07

They can get big yeah.

Kimothy: 46:10

Well, thanks for being on the show.

Jake: 46:12

And thank you for having me.

Kimothy: 46:14

Everybody. Be sure to check the show notes, Click and follow and I'll see you on the internet. Okay, bye. So, Jake, would you craft a spell with me? I don't know how it's going to work, because I don't work with the Bible at all and I don't know how you do your working, okay. So it's an experiment, and actually I meant to write out a list of things that we could choose from as far as intention, but I forgot to, so I'm just gonna name some crap off. We're gonna jump on one. Like protection,, peaceful home, bringing in money, not losing your shit in this political climate… 

Jake: 47:05

Oh god, that's the truth. Oh, let's see here… trying to think. Of course my mind's going damn blank. I don't know, let's do, let's do protection. That seems like the easiest and most often thought out. Yeah, I think that's where everybody starts out anyway, if they’re starting out their practice.

Kimothy: 47:24

Yeah, or like a love spell, but I don't do that. [fades out]

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