Infusing Art with Ancient Magic: Embracing Minoan Witchcraft and Creativity with Laura Perry

When Laura Perry melds her magical practice with her artistry, you can't help but feel the layers of history and enchantment intertwine. This episode brings you into Laura's world, where the joyous Minoan culture breathes life into her modern witchcraft and creativity. As a seasoned witch and a captivating artist, Laura shares the vibrancy of Minoan traditions, their progressive approach to gender roles, and the way these ancient practices enrich her life and work. From painting and music to herbology, her personal journey is a testament to the enduring power of magic in the mundane. Laura also reveals the resilience of witchcraft in her lineage, weaving tales of folk magic that have stood the test of time despite suppression, guiding listeners to find the spirited world within their own lives.

Striking a balance between the transformative aspects of witchcraft and the challenges it faces in today's fast-paced society, we uncover the motivations that drive our magical practices and the evolution of our intentions. You'll discover how reenactments of living history can reset our magical compass and the importance of self-taught magic in an often too structured spiritual landscape. As we share the wisdom passed down from our elders and the lessons from our own experiences, we invite you to listen more to your inner voice and honor the guidance of deities and ancestors. By the end of our conversation, you'll be looking forward to stories from Imelda Almkvist and feeling encouraged to embrace the magical journey that shapes and defines you.

Visit Laura's website here:
lauraperryauthor.com

Transcript

Kim: 0:04

Welcome back to your Average Witch, where every Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories and sometimes a little witchcraft. Your Average Witch is brought to you by Crepuscular Conjuration. In this episode, I'm talking to Laura Perry, a witch and artist. Laura talks about art, witchcraft in everyday life and the Minoan tradition. Now let's get to the stories. Hello, Laura, welcome to the show.

Laura: 0:35

Hi, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Kim: 0:39

I'm glad to have you here. Will you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are, what you do and where they can find you.

Laura: 0:46

Sure, so my name is Laura Perry. I am a witch and creator who works magic with words, paint, ink, music, textiles and herbs. I'm the founder and temple mom of Ariadne's Tribe, which is an inclusive Minoan spiritual tradition, and when I'm not obsessing about the Minoans, you can probably find me digging in my vegetable garden or doing a living history interpretation at a local historic site. I'm especially fond of pre-industrial skills like weaving, hand spinning and hearth cooking. My pronouns are they and she. I am currently living on land that was the home of the Muskogee Creek people and then the Cherokee people, and I'd love to see it be their home again and for the US federal government to honor all the treaties. And you can find me online at lauraperryauthor. com. My website's got all my social links and everything there.

Kim: 1:55

Can you please tell me what it means to you when you call yourself a witch?

Laura: 2:03

Okay. So I had to think about this one for a while, because witch has so many different connotations in our culture, so I had to think about what my underlying definition of it is, and I think to me, being a witch means seeing the magic in life, not just like doing spells or that kind of nothing, not necessarily just formal stuff like that, but recognizing that the world is magic, I'm magic, you're magic, oh thanks. I'm also an animist, so to me the world isn't just magic, but it's also very much alive and inspirited and something for me to be in relationship with, and to me that's also part of being a witch.

Kim: 2:57

So can you please tell me about the Minoan thing, because I was looking and I thought, oh, that's interesting. Please explain.

Laura: 3:08

Okay. The Minoans were a Bronze Age culture on the island of Crete in the Mediterranean Sea. Most people know them from their art, from the colorful frescoes like the Bull Leaper fresco. People have seen that one a lot. That's probably one of the most common ones. They were an unusual culture for their time and place. So even if you think about just the art, the way the natural motion and realism in the art looks so different from the art of Egypt and Mesopotamia from the same time period, which looks more stiff and formal, and so you can see a sort of joy of life in there. They were a matrilineal society. Some people like to use the term matriarchal, but that's got some connotations that are probably not actually accurate. What we do know is that they were gender egalitarian, women had high status. They were a peaceful society. They were quite wealthy and they got to be that way by being incredible artisans and importing all kinds of raw material and then turning them into beautiful things like carved stone figurines and vases and bronze figurines and all this beautiful art and jewelry and then exporting it everywhere.

Laura: 4:41

They were a sailing people. They lived on an island, so I mean you kind of have to be a sea-going people if you live on an island. So they traded all over the Mediterranean. They may actually have even gone out into the Atlantic. So they were just a very sort of exuberant, peaceful, creative, artistic people in the midst of a whole bunch of fairly vigorous Bronze Age empires. So they were very much their own thing. It even looks like they maintained neolithic religious practices all the way into the Bronze Age, so like caves and stones, and some of the much older practices were very much still their thing. So it's likely that their neighbors thought that they were kind of a little weird and backwards for like not getting with the times. I relate, but yeah, and so they are appealing in a number of different ways. They show us what we can be if we choose to, and so to me that's a big part of why they are a part of my spiritual life.

Kim: 6:05

I mean it sounds like I want to be there. Yeah, I want art to be my job. I mean it kind of is, but I don't get paid very well. I want art to be my job and actually survive.

Laura: 6:15

Yeah, yeah, I hear that.

Kim: 6:18

And do you say that you have any family history with witchcraft or magical practice of any kind?

Laura: 6:23

Yeah, and so I'm going to give something away here that not very many people know. I was born with six toes on each foot, so that, of course, understandably freaked out all the fundamentalist Christians in my family. So I started out witchy from day one. I've always been one of those weird people who has premonitions and sees dead people and all that kind of thing. I learned early on to keep quiet about it, and it wasn't now. When I was five or six, one of my great-grandmothers tried to teach me the folk magic that she knew, but some other family members caught on and suddenly I wasn't allowed to spend time with her alone anymore.

Kim: 7:09

Boo! Man. That...

Laura: 7:11

Yeah, after that, it wasn't until I was an adult that I realized that there were actually an awful lot of witchy people in my family, both men and women, but especially the women. Both of my grandmothers had the sight. One of my great-grandmothers was actually an herb woman. So there's a history, even if the family kind of kept it hush-hush. So, yeah, it's there and honestly, I suspect my family is not that unusual. I suspect there are an awful lot of people whose families have these kinds of things in them and just over the past few generations, people have tried to hush it up because it's not okay or something. How weird.

Kim: 7:57

How weird. If you have something, a talent, then why would you unless it's murder, why would you? I mean, I think, we know that. I know why socially, but realistically.

Laura: 8:14

Yeah.

Kim: 8:15

Why.

Laura: 8:15

Well, yeah, I mean some of it, some of the family members kind of couched in Christian terminology, and so they would do the folk magic but then say a Psalm afterwards. So it's not really witchy, it's. Oh, no, no, I'm a perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a perfectly good Christian. See, I'm saying a Bible verse after I do this folk magic thing.

Kim: 8:44

So, yeah, Well, can you introduce us to your practice Like walk us through your average day of witch stuff?

Laura: 8:56

Ah, my average day of witch stuff. You know, I don't think of myself as that witchy, and I said something about that to my husband one day and he kind of gestured around it all the jars of herbs in the kitchen and I was like, okay, okay, but I mean because that's just normal to me, right, and so I forget that it's not normal for everybody. A big aspect, okay. So first of all, my practice is deity centered and ancestor centered. So I, every evening, I light a candle for my ancestors.

Laura: 9:34

That's part of my way of honoring my beloved dead, and I try to listen to them when I'm figuring out what I need to do, and I do my best not to separate magical and mundane stuff. That's the idea of having them be separate is. That's the opposite of my worldview. And so I would like to. I like to kind of keep a magical mindset just as I go throughout my day, like what am I doing now and how is that magical? How can I make it more magical? How can I make it more inspired? How can I make it more? How can I make it reverberate more in the greater world? And so you know, like, even if, when I'm writing or when I'm working on art, or when I'm cooking dinner, any of those kinds of things. Those are also magical activities, and so that's kind of how my days go.

Kim: 10:49

I relate to everything through either food or dogs and I'm going with food here. It sounds like if your day is the meal you're preparing, magic is the seasoning, because everything needs a little sprinkle. Yes, Even dessert itself.

Laura: 11:08

Yes.

Kim: 11:11

Oh yeah, it worked. Now would you say witchcraft has changed your life, and I know that sounds kind of like that question shouldn't work if it is all of your life, but still.

Laura: 11:29

Well, but it hasn't always been all of my life, because it was very much. Any of that kind of thing was very much frowned on when I was growing up. As I became an adult and stepped into my own magical power, a big part of what that did was broaden the worldview that I had, you know, because I was raised with a fairly narrow worldview and the idea that the world is magical and that there's so much more to it than the purely materialistic post enlightenment concept of what exists and what is real. I have to recognize that every single situation that I encounter in my life, whether it's ordinary daily life at home or on my job or out in the big world, every single situation has more to it than meets the eye, and those extra layers offer me opportunities to be magical in ways that might not be visible to everybody.

Kim: 12:36

I like that, so I like that. What would you say is the biggest motivator in your practice and has it changed since you first started?

Laura: 12:49

So I have been accused of having an overdeveloped sense of justice and fair play, and I think that is my ultimate motivator the idea that I have more than just mundane tools to work with to make sure that I and my family and the groups that I serve can find our way in the world, have what we need to make the world a better place for others. I don't think the motivation itself has changed significantly over time, but what I do with it, my ability to do the work with it and achieve my goals, has definitely grown as my mindset has expanded and I have become aware of all the possibilities for making the world a better place for everybody.

Kim: 13:44

I like that too. What would you say is the biggest struggle that you have with witchcraft?

Laura: 13:55

So that's, I guess that's that magical, mundane balance For me. It is not necessarily a struggle all the time, but it's a constant effort to stay magical in an increasingly materialistic world. Lord, Just dealing with the everyday reality of modern life, the speed of modern life can totally wear me out. And magic is an energy thing. Right, you got to have the energy for it. If you don't have the energy left for it, because magic isn't about going through the motions, it's about what's underneath the motions. And if I am worn out from trying to keep up with the modern world, then I have a hard time being magical, focusing on the stuff that's harder to see. You know, the stuff that's underneath. I have joked before that my preferred speed of life is somewhere between 19th century and Buddhist monastery. So that gives you an idea of yeah.

Kim: 15:11

Yeah, I don't want to live in a dirt hole and have to dig a hole to use the toilet, but I do kind of... Little House on the Prairie does not sound that too bad to me all the time.

Laura: 15:25

Yeah no kidding. do you- Oh, I'm sorry. (Kim- no, go ahead.) That's actually part of why I do living history, besides the fact that I don't want those skills to die out and I want people to see them and understand them and know about them. Going out to a historic site and spending a day living a 19th century life slows me back down in a way that nothing else does, and so it like recalibrates my system so that I can stay in the magic better.

Laura: 16:08

Yeah and I have to wonder just how much we've wrecked our ability to see and feel and sense all of everything that's there, simply because we're wearing ourselves out all the time trying to keep up with a 21st century speed of life.

Kim: 16:29

Capitalism.

Laura: 16:31

Yes.

Kim: 16:32

Also, we don't ever go outside because we're in here on the computer or buried in our phones Watching TV, whatever inside I feel well, I personally have to be outside frequently or I don't feel like there's magic. I don't feel magic at all.

Laura: 16:50

Yeah.

Kim: 16:54

Do you feel like you have imposter syndrome about your practice? And if you do, how do you beat it? Or if you, let me rephrase that I don't know if we can beat it, how do you deal with it and cope with it and help continue, help yourself, continue, yeah.

Laura: 17:14

I mean, I have imposter syndrome about everything, because that's just Especially if you're female presenting in this culture. You are raised to believe that you're not naturally good at very many things and that you probably don't deserve to be on top and all that other crap. Why, how do you beat it? Just keep swimming, just do the thing. Just keep doing the thing. If something doesn't work out for me if I'm doing something magically or in a mundane aspect if something doesn't work out for me, maybe it's not the right time, maybe I'mmaybe there's some aspect of the situation that I haven't seen and figured out yet. Back up, reassess, regroup, try again. Being stubborn is helpful here. Don't give up. If you keep doing the work, then the nasty little voice will eventually shut up, at least for a while.

Kim: 18:28

If you quit, it definitely didn't work. Yes, if you keep crying, maybe it will.

Laura: 18:37

Yes.

Kim: 18:38

Yes, that's what I heard out of what you said.

Laura: 18:43

Well, and if you quit, they won.

Kim: 18:48

Yeah, fuck that. W hat brings you the most joy in your practice?

Laura: 18:54

Since I'm part of a larger spiritual tradition, I get to watch other people learn and grow. I think that's really what brings me the most joy is seeing other people find their own magic and connect with that part of themselves and maybe having a small part to play in helping them do that. It's amazing to watch somebody blossom like that and realize that there's just so much more to the world.

Kim: 19:28

It makes me really... I did not expect this of that question, but so many people come on and say things like that what they can do to help others have some sort of realization or growth or whatever. That's what they love out of it. That makes me happy for us as people.

Laura: 19:49

We are social animals. We are all about each other.

Kim: 19:55

I don't ever remember that. What's something you did early on in your practice that you don't do anymore, and why don't you do it?

Laura: 20:08

I rarely use prefab spells anymore, like spells that someone else wrote. I rarely well even spells that I wrote. I rarely do things as formally as I used to. I might research folk practices around, whatever it is that I'm trying to do, but then I will create something myself intuitively, usually on the spur of the moment. I usually call to my deities and my ancestors for help because they can whisper in my ears and give me hints. Same for objects like dressed candles and stuff like that. I make most of my own kind of stuff anymore. There's nothing wrong with the store-bought, it's just that that's just the way that my practice has kind of leaned over the years is to more casual and more spur of the moment and intuitive.

Kim: 21:08

Me too. It's fun to learn all the ceremonial stuff, but I do not have the time or energy to do that all the time. What is your favorite tool in your practice, whether it is a physical object or a

Laura: 21:25

So that's probably something that I call my magical peripheral vision. You know, when you're trying to figure something out, whether it's what you want to do magically in order to reach a goal or whether it's just a solution to a problem. The harder you try, the harder it is to find the solution. But if you quit looking and you focus on something else, then whatever you need suddenly appears, like in your peripheral vision. There it is, but you can't look at it directly. If you go looking for it directly, it's gone, but if you're looking somewhere else, it's there, and so that's how I find the best solutions. It's a shift in perspective Looking at the world and allowing the solution to slide up next to me instead of hunting it down like some kind of prey, like allowing it to appear in its own time, in its own way. It's a cat, yes.

Kim: 22:49

Oh, I like that. Can you pick out one decision you've made that has changed the direction of your life, and if so, can you tell us what it is?

Laura: 23:01

So there have been several major pivot points in my life, as is true of most people probably but I think the biggest one overall was probably the decision to step away permanently from the 9-5 world and put all of my energy into the things I love doing from a creative and magical perspective so writing, art, spiritual group leadership, devoting myself to all of that and letting that become my full-time job, so that that whole complex of things is now my full-time job instead of just one little narrow thing. So yeah, that's, and I am privileged to have been able to do that, because I'm not the only income in my household, so I have to acknowledge that not everybody has the freedom to be able to make that kind of decision. I'm very lucky to be able to do that.

Kim: 24:08

Me too. I hope more people are able to, gradually.

Laura: 24:16

Yeah. Yeah, I would... that's one of the reasons that I really like the idea of multi-generational and extended family households, because it makes it so much easier for people who want to do something like that to have the ability to do it, while the people who want the 9-5 stuff can still do that. It gives. Can't bother them that. Yeah, my husband absolutely loves his job. He's an electronics technician. He does prototypes and R&D in a lab. He loves it. So, yay, yeah, so I mean there are people who absolutely love that kind of thing and that is grand. Let them have it, let them have their fun too. But yeah, yeah, I would like to see people in more situations where they can make those kinds of choices, if that's what they want.

Kim: 25:13

Yes. How do you pull yourself out of a magical slump?

Laura: 25:20

That's a hard one. So I don't usually get a magical slump. That's separate from a sort of low period in my whole life in general. So it's usually like all one package deal, one great big ugly package. So that sort of thing will typically happen to me when all of life gets really heavy. You know, whatever is going on in my personal life, my business life, the big world, all of that and usually I don't usually realize it's going on while it's happening and so what will happen is that I will get into sort of survival mode so that I'm just putting all of my time and energy into the mundane, practical stuff, just getting it done, just getting the task, the to-do list done every day, meeting the deadlines, checking stuff off and just surviving like that.

Laura: 26:32

And at some point usually someone else will say are you aware that you are in this kind of condition? Because it is hard for me to see that kind of thing from the inside. And when it is brought to my attention then I can take a step back and see what's going on and recognize that I have like squeezed all the magic out, like there's no room for it, because I am throttling life by the neck, holding on so tightly to try to make sure that I get, you know, the practical stuff done and just you know, one day to the next. And so once I take the step of recognizing that then I can find some breathing room, make a little space, allow that magical energy back in. But yeah, for me it's more of an overall life kind of thing.

Kim: 27:38

That reminds me of that... Remember that cartoon with the frog holding onto the crane's neck in the train? It reminds me of that. (Laura: Never give up!) Yeah, that guy. And that makes me go back to when you were talking about the energy that it takes to do everything. And if you are putting all your energy, I mean we only have so much. If you're putting it all in the mundane struggle, then obviously we don't have enough to go all the way around. Right, what's something you wish was discussed more in the witch community?

Laura: 28:25

Oh, I wish people talked more about the idea that you don't have to have a title or be a part of any kind of formal named tradition or practice in order to do legitimate magic and be a witch. There's sort of a weight on the pagan community of all of these titles and traditions and all this kind of thing. And now bear in mind, I run a tradition, I run a spiritual tradition, and they are good things, but they are not what makes you a legitimately magical person. A spiritual tradition or a title, those are tools, just like everything else, and you don't have to use them. They're not for everybody and they are not necessary. Whatever works for each person is what makes them magical. That's what it comes down to.

Kim: 29:31

If you're a new witch, you can still look for a title that makes you happy, but you don't have to. Yes, I did really like look, though when I was really getting into it I thought, oh, maybe this is me, let me try this on, but now I don't care. Imagine the three biggest influences on your life, whether it's a philosophy or a person or something that happened to you once. Please thank them for whatever they did for you to influence you and your practice.

Laura: 30:20

OK, so my three biggest influences are actually three pairs of people. In each pair, the two people appear to be very different from each other, but were actually very similar in ways that allowed me to learn very important things in my life. So the first pair is my two grandmothers, who are very different. I don't know if you remember the story the town mouse and the country mouse, the child story.

Kim: 31:04

I remember hearing it, but I don't remember what it is.

Laura: 31:07

OK, well, I mean it's, the title is self-explanatory. There's a town mouse and a country mouse, OK, so I had town grandparents and country grandparents, and so they were very different from each other. My two grandmothers were very different people, but they both taught me that I am worthy of the things that I want, no matter what anyone else says, and that is an incredible gift that I am very grateful for my two grandfathers, who were also extremely different people. I am grateful to them for teaching me to put in the effort. You have to put in the hard work for whatever you want, but you have to make sure your heart is in it too, or it won't be worth doing, and so that was. That was a very special gift. And then the third one. The third pair is my two children, who are also extremely different people well, extremely different, but also kind of similar underneath it all, and I am grateful to them for teaching me that love is the most important thing of all.

Kim: 32:25

My heart. Even if they don't listen to this podcast, you should play them that part. What advice do you have for new witches? Somebody just starting out.

Laura: 32:40

Listen. And so that means listen to people who have more experience than you do, listen to your ancestors, listen to any deities you might have relationships with, but also listen to your own inner voice, because eventually, that's going to be the ultimate arbiter of how you are a witch in the world.

Kim: 33:11

Oh, that's a good one. Also, I love the word Arbiter.

Laura: 33:21

SAT words for the win. So finally it was worth doing. I got something out of it. I got to mention an SAT word on an interview 40 years later.

Kim: 33:41

It's appreciated! Having answered these questions and talked to me and seeing what this is like, who do you think would be interesting for me to have on the show? Who would you like to hear from?

Laura: 33:53

I think you should interview my dear friend, imelda Almkvist, who is a northern tradition witch and a marvelous and beautiful person. She would be you. great guest for you.

Kim: 34:07

Okay, yay. Is there anything else that you wanted to bring up, anything going on that you're going to, any events you're going to be at, or did you have any questions for me?

Laura: 34:18

So I will be presenting at WitchCon online in February. I'm doing a workshop about inclusive Minoan spirituality. Witchcon is a huge online sort of pagan and witchy and magical festival that lasts the whole weekend and there are lots of great presenters. But I am among them and so if anyone is interested in that I think the website is witchcon. com or something like that I'll put links up on all of my social media.

Kim: 34:56

Cool. The last two things I ask of my guests. Thing number one: please recommend something. Anything at all. Doesn't have to be witchy related, just whatever you're into this week, something cool, new thing, tv show, drink, whatever that you found. Please recommend something to the listeners.

Laura: 35:17

Oh, please recommend something. I have... Is this an age 18 above show? (Kim: yes.) because if you drink alcohol, I have recently discovered how marvelous brandy is in hot tea. I just had the flu and my granddaddy used to have a cold remedy that he made which was equal parts of whiskey, honey and lemon juice, and he would mix it together and keep it in an old Coke bottle. My grandmother did not approve, but essentially, yeah, with a cork stuck. A cork in the top of it. He was a character, but yeah, I was thinking about that, and he would stir it into a cup of hot water and make a sort of tea with it and I thought, hmm, how could we expand upon this? And so I discovered that you can make a cup of hot tea and add a shot of brandy to it and it is quite medicinal and even if you're sick, you will sleep really, really well, so nice.

Kim: 36:39

The last thing is please tell me a story.

Laura: 36:43

Well, you asked, okay. So this is the magic of humor. I am from the southeastern US which, as you probably know, is a place with heavy regional accents. I went to a lot of trouble to scrub a lot of my accent away when I was younger so that I wouldn't get the response that many people have to women with a southern accent, which is, oh you must be really stupid. But I am very much from the heavy southern accent area.

Laura: 37:24

I went to college at Emory University here in Atlanta and there was a record heat wave at the beginning of my freshman year. It was 104 degrees the day that I moved in, and so I was there, for I was a freshman. I was there for orientation week before classes started and they had all of these icebreaker kind of activities, and one was a barbecue right and so we were all gathered out under these big oak trees which would have been gorgeous if it wasn't 104 degrees. We were all sweating like crazy in the shade and lining up to get our food, and I had become friends with a girl across the hall from me in my dorm, and she was from New York City. She was the first person I had ever met who was really from New York with the accent and everything, and she was really sweet. We got along great, and so we were just standing around talking, we got our food and then we lined up at the drink table.

Laura: 38:25

Now they were serving iced tea, because this is the south and you have iced tea with barbecue. But it was 104 degrees out, and so they had poured all of these glasses of iced tea and they were out on this table and the ice had melted in all of them, right, or was almost completely melted, and so at the end of the drinks table they had stationed this young man with a giant bin of fresh ice so that everyone could refresh their drinks. So my friend wasn't paying attention, she was talking to me. We picked up our drinks and we were moving toward the end of the table and she was ahead of me and so this young man was a local right and so she, my friend, wasn't paying a whole lot of attention. So she just kind of looked over at him as he spoke and with one of the heaviest southern accents I have ever heard, he smiled real big at her and said would you lack a piece of ass?

Kim: 39:24

I knew, I knew it.

Laura: 39:27

And my friend just stared at him for a solid 10 seconds with her mouth hanging open, before she realized that he was holding out an ice cube in some tongs, offering to put it in her class of tea. And I literally had to step away and like suck in a few deep breaths to keep from just laughing hysterically at this girl that I had just met, because I didn't want to hurt her feelings. So anyway, that was. That was the delightful beginning to my college career in the south.

Kim: 40:03

Oh the south. I used to do captioning for the hearing impaired, like their phone calls, and there were people in Louisiana. I just couldn't understand anything they were saying and my husband, who is from Colorado, would get North Carolina calls. He couldn't understand them either. I can do the North Carolina calls, but he cannot. It was very funny to me. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I had a good time talking to you. Everybody be sure to go follow Laura on all her socials, check out her website, go see her at witch con, and that's it. Bye! L aura, welcome to Hive House. So the first thing we're going to do is a surprise, and I'm going to pull a card and have you give me your thoughts on what I pull out of it. These are icebreaker questions. Nothing, okay, dramatic. (fades out)

Laura: 41:11

(fades in) And of course they could smell that something had been burnt. But I was like la la la, nothing happened here, nothing to see. And then I was like what's going on? And later on and I don't remember when it was the, maybe the same day, maybe a couple days later it turned out that giant ceramic vase by the front door was an umbrella stand. And so if you put an umbrella in an umbrella stand that has had an entire pot full of scorched chocolate pudding dumped in it, and then you take that umbrella back out, it's a unique sensory experience. (fades out)

Kim: 41:42

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