Lane Smith. Author, activist, and tarot reader

In this episode I’m talking to Lane Smith, a writer, activist, and tarot reader. We talked about time, Jupiter, and what it actually means to be a witch. Now let’s get to the stories!

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Learn more about Lane and their books here!

Transcript

Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where every Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft. This episode of Your Average Witch is brought to you by Crepuscular Conjuration. In this episode, I'm talking to Lane Smith, a writer, activist, and tarot reader. We talked about time, Jupiter, and what it actually means to be a witch. Now let's get to the stories.

Kim: Good morning, Lane. Welcome to the show. 

Lane: Hi, thanks for having me.

Kim:  Thank you for being here. Can you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you?

Lane: Yes, so I'm Lane Smith. I use they/them pronouns. I'm a transmasculine writer and activist. I have a book coming out this summer, It's called 78 Acts of Liberation: Tarot to Transform Our World that's being published by Sounds True, and so I'm on Instagram and my handle is @leftlanesmith. Yeah, so people mostly know me from writing about about tarot. I'll just say a little bit of what I don't do. I don't sell tarot readings. I don't have any sort of like business offerings. I don't sell anything. I'm just really just a writer and I'm a pretty private person. So this is actually really the first time that I'm talking about my magical practice publicly, really at all. The only other time I can think of is I spoke a tiny bit about it a couple years ago with Queer Conjure on there for their Patreon. But otherwise, this is all going to be stuff that's things I've kept pretty private up till now. So I'm kind of excited to talk about it for the first time in a public way.

Kim: Oh, that made my heart feel nice. Thank you for... Thank you, then.

Lane: Yeah, no, no problem. I think people are interested. I'm just like kind of a reserved private person. And it's just… magical practice isn't something that I intend to sell or monetize. It's part of my life, but it's not necessarily part of my public life. But I don't mind talking about it. I just tend to default to privacy, not necessarily secrecy, just privacy, if you know what I mean.

Kim: Yeah, that makes sense. I actually, I do tell a lot of things on here, but there's a lot that I don't.

Lane: Yeah, sure. As it should be. (both laugh) Right. I will say it, too, I'm in Baltimore, Baltimore City. And You know being a political person, I'm sort of exactly the kind of person you would expect to give a land acknowledgement and I never really got into doing that, and I only just recently kind of figured out why that didn't sit so well with me. And in my practice, I work with time a lot. I work with Saturn and Jupiter and time and timing a lot in my practice. And I think what bothered me about land acknowledgments is that there's sort of a flattening of time there in the way that it's used, or it's just sort of like it sounds like this land used to belong to the Piscataway and now I'm here, right? That's like, and that's just how it is. It's like how it sounds to me, like that's the historical thing and this is now and that's it and there's nothing really even about land back in there, like what's the future, you know? There's just no, nothing about time there and so if you don't mind I'd actually like to do more of like a time acknowledgement than a land acknowledgement.

Kim: That is fascinating so yes, please do.

Lane:  I just really wanted to, so I looked at the planetary hours when we were starting and we are in the Saturn and Jupiter hours while we're talking which I love because those are kind of like my main dudes. And Jupiter is really all about chirological time, the sort of like of the moment, the opportune moment, like what are we called to sort of seize in this moment. And then Saturn, which we know is like associated with Chronos and chronological time, is more about like origin, ancestry, duration, and that kind of thing. And I just, Jupiter sort of calls me to point out that this moment that we're living in now is really a reckoning around settler colonialism, with everything that's happening. Well, with the acceleration of the genocide of Palestinians that began, like Saturn calls me to acknowledge that it began really 75 years ago, but it's Since October. It's really been accelerated and exacerbated and There's this big public reckoning around settler colonialism colonialism not being this thing That's in the distant past in history. It's something that is still very present and ongoing and this is our moment to seize. That's a reckoning around that. And like, what is the future of settler colonialism going to be? Hopefully, it's going to be putting an end to it. But, yeah, I just wanted to sort of situate our conversation. And in 2024, the beginning of 2024, this is sort of like the political moment that we're in. And that's our sort of like, at least to me, that's our main kind of like question and task and opportunity around what we decide is going to happen with settler colonialism. just like the time and the timing being like Jupiter and Saturn hours of this day on this Jupiter day, which is Thursday, I just think is a pretty cool thing. So I just wanted to acknowledge those things as well as the place that I'm in, Baltimore City, which belongs to the Piscataway people who obviously still exist and are still here and are not in some distant historical past. And we're in a time of reckoning around like what it means past and we're in a time of reckoning around like what it means to return the land and not devastate our planet and the people living on it as far as I'm concerned anyway.

Kim: Holy crap, okay, already, this is already an adventure for me. Because I will have to go look up that first thing you said about time. That is already gone, by the way. I will have to do it when I re-listen when I'm editing. 

Lane: About just like chronological versus chirological time? 

Kim:  Yes!

Lane: Yeah. Jupiter sort of like seize the day, seize the moment, like the opportune moment of like the timing of something versus like how long have you been doing it, how long has this been going on, what is the order of events, which is more like Saturn. 

Kim: Ooh, thank you for educating me.

Lane: Sure, sure. I'm a Sagittarius. I'm actually a quadruple Sagittarius, which is Jupiter. And so what I hate, the stereotype about Sagittarius is that we lack commitment, and it's just like a different commitment. We are fully committed to making the most of the moment. That's what Jupiter time is. That's not a commitment, that's about duration. Yes, okay, so we're good. We're here for a good time and not a long time, but we're fully committed to the moment. All right?  like we're not gonna sleepwalk through it. So I don't know. It's just a different lens on commitment I guess.

Kim:  I always find that I get along really well with Sag. I love the fact that you're so ready for anything.

Lane:  Yeah, yeah.  

Kim: It's fun for me. Well thank you for introducing me to that and introducing the listeners to that. I am excited to look into it and to explore the idea and maybe rephrase that…

Lane: Sure thing. 

Kim: …when I talk to other people. But I don't have time to ponder that right now. Can you tell us what it means to you when you call yourself a witch?

Lane:  I love that you asked this question on this show. It's my favorite question that you ask. I don't actually call myself a witch. I, let's see, it's a matter of, like, I certainly fit into, like, anybody's general definition of a witch in this modern, like, catch-all. And I don't, like, I don't know. I guess I sort of gatekeep myself out of it. It's about definition and it's about like length of experience. I just started like trying out what people call witchcraft in 2018. And to me, like five years is no time at all. For someone else, they might be like, I learned about witchcraft two weeks ago, and I know I'm a witch. And I have no judgment about that, like for you. I could not possibly know that after two weeks, but that's me. And I'm just saying my standard for myself is not one that I hold other people to. I think absolutely anybody can call themselves a witch and I don't question anybody else's self-definition. For me, I have not met my own standard of what it means to be a witch. And it's partially one of definition, just having like a little bit narrower definition than just like someone who uses magic. And just like length of experience or depth of experience that I haven't met yet. It may be that like in some years I do call myself a witch, but I feel that I'm not there yet. And I don't take it, I don't necessarily take it for granted that I will. It's like a genuine exploratory sort of thing. Like, yes, I use magic. I don't think you have to be a witch to use magic. And it's not a foregone conclusion to me that I'm on the path to becoming a witch because a witch means something historically and culturally that's more specific than just someone who uses magic in my opinion. But it could be that I define myself that way. I think, you know, you've had others on the show who have said this, too, that like being a witch is really being like, on being an outsider, being beyond the bounds of sort of like acceptable norms of society. And like, I definitely am in terms of politics, like, yeah, I get arrested, I've gotten arrested, right? Like the law is not important to me, right? Like rebellion, rebellion is part of my existence, for sure. 

Kim: Yay!

Lane: I mean, when I think of-

Kim: I mean the rebellion part, not the jail part. 

Lane: Yeah. When I think of my spiritual work, though, I don't really feel like I've been such a baddie in how I use magic or in the spiritual. I don't know. Like, to me, if you're talking about the spiritual realm as opposed to gender or politics or culture or whatever, you would be an outsider in terms of morality. And I don't know. I am actually pretty rigidly, I have a pretty rigid adherence to at least my idea of morality and maybe just the fact that my idea of morality is not the dominant cultures. It's not certainly not Christianity's definition of morality, and maybe that's enough. I haven't determined whether I think that's true or not. But yeah, I don't know. I don't feel yet like my use of magic or my spiritual practice is as transgressive as it would need to be for me to call myself a witch. And part of that is that like, part of my moral basis is really anti-hierarchical and not infringing on anybody's autonomy, including my own. So a lot of especially traditional witches I know really have no compunction about like casting a on somebody to make them do something, and like I could not. (laughs)  Just my own morality around not impinging on another person's autonomy wouldn't allow me to do that. And it also sort of precludes any idea of like putting myself in service to some power, selling my soul to the devil, or using that as a metaphor for any number of other things. I just like have a real aversion to controlling or being controlled. And I don't know. It's something I'm still exploring, like what is the more, what… What, if any, moral grounding is there for? Especially like the traditional witch which sort of positions itself, themselves, in opposition to Christianity. I didn't grow up, like, in church, so I don't really think of myself in reference to that. But I know a lot of people do find witchcraft because they're sort of rebelling against their religious upbringing. And, like, that makes sense to me, absolutely. absolutely but because I don't really have that to rebel against, I don't yeah it's just my practice doesn't feel particularly transgressive and that almost like makes it not… witchcraft. I don't know, I can… it’s still something I'm exploring. It's still something…

Kim:  I'm just being like the, you told me no, so now I have to go do it. I don't think so. Am I doing that? Oh my gosh. What does it mean- What does, what, do you have a word for yourself or do you just are just a person with a magical practice?

Lane: Yeah, I don't have a special word. Like, to me, it's just sort of part of life. Like, you know, what do you call somebody who has breakfast and walks their dog and has a little daydreaming time during the day or whatever? It's like those collection of things that you do doesn't have a particular label. You're like, that's just my life, right? And that's kind of like how I feel about having magic as part of my life. I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't really feel the need to have a special label on it, at least not right now.

Kim: Would you say that your family, did you grow up with magical practice in any way? 

Lane: It's funny, kind of yes and no. Like my mom, sort of for fun, like was really invested in me believing in fairies and things like this. And like, like in the same way, like a lot of parents have their kids believe in Santa, like, you know, sort of fabricating things to get you to believe in this magic. And I don't necessarily think it was bad that she did that, but like, couldn't be me. Like I have two children and like, they know that there is no Santa. I'm not about lying to people. And it also, just for me, it's like you don't have to lie about magic because there is magic, right? You don't have to fabricate it, because there is magic that you can observe every day. And I just really disagree with the whole idea of like, oh, you're robbing children of magic if you don't lie to them about Santa. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Like you don't, if you really believe in magic. You don't have to lie about it like or fabricate it. But anyway, how to create this magical childhood or whatever, and so I don't know. I guess I grew up with that with sort of like encouragement into fantasy and imagination and I'm not sorry that I grew up that way. Um, but I prefer honesty and, and like, finding real magic instead of fabricating it.

Kim: I wonder if she did it because it's fun for her.

Lane: Yeah, I mean, like, most things she does because they're fun for her. Yeah.

Kim:  But, I don't know if I'm being clear. I would totally do it because it's fun and I like to feel it but I also see how when you're growing up you don't know that's why I'm doing it, so it isn't fun for you. Huh. Can you introduce us to your practice? Do you have any… the word ritual just bothers me, but do you have rituals that you do? 

Lane: Yeah, yeah, no, I know. I'm like, you asked like, something about like, what you struggle with or something like definitely routine and consistency are my biggest struggles, so definitely consistency and routine are  inherent in it. And so yeah I'm not very consistent, but I mean obviously I use divination I use tarot, I use astrology, and sort of like a relationship with the planets that's a little separate from astrology. Like, I work with planets as natural objects, like many people work with plants, like as the physical entities that they are, not as representations of gods or anything like that. And so that's what I mean about working with Jupiter and Saturn around time or stretching time or expanding time or speeding up or slowing down time or whatever is needed in terms of that. I guess you could say I'm a little bit utilitarian about the way that I use magic. I use spells for finding shit probably the most, because I'm always losing crap. And that thankfully is something that works without fail.

Kim: That’s good!

Lane:  Yeah, yeah, I'm really disorganized, so that helps. (laughs)  Yeah, trying to think… you know, it's more of like more than ritual or anything. Certainly, I don't, I don't use a lot of tools. I don't really get into the aesthetics of witchcraft very much. It's more of sort of like a way of being in the world, like just, I don't know. Observing synchronicities, omens, or whatever you might want to call them. Messages. Just allowing yourself to be guided, having self trust and trust in whatever you want to call it. The mysterious, ineffable spirit, you know, things that you can't control, that just have nothing to do with your willpower or anything that's just beyond you, and having a little bit of faith that that is working in ways that it's better if you don't try to control them. I don't know, it's just sort of like, to me it's more of like a way of moving in the world and through the world than it is necessarily like doing these little rituals and spells all the time. You know what I mean?

Kim: Kind of. I'm pondering, I'm sifting through to see if I do or not. 

Lane: Yeah, like, okay, like, I would say, have you ever seen the movie or read the book Dune? Yes. So the voice, like she just kind of like changes her tone of voice and then it does something different than normal speaking, right? When she uses the voice. And like there's no tools involved. There's no like special magic words. There's no special like ingredients or anything. It's just this like shift in reality, right? It's like I'm just talking, okay, now I'm not just talking, now I'm speaking in this way that shifts reality, right? That makes things happen.

Kim: Yeah.

Lane: And so to meet like that is more like, I obviously don't use magic to control people, like the voice was used in Dune, but it's that, like... Seeing things, talking about things, writing about things, doing things, but then it's like, it's like…oh I need to find this, I need to find this, I need to find this. And then it’s like okay, wait. (takes deep breath) Find this. It’s like, let me shift reality. And it’s a spell now. Now it’s a spell, right? And I’m not fucking around, this is a spell now, right? Like I don’t just need to find it,  I NEED to find this. Right? And it's just like that shift, that reality shift where you're just like, okay I'm not just bullshitting here, like for real now. This is a spell.

Kim: This is, now okay. I have a curiosity question about this. I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to answer it but I'm curious. 

Lane: Yeah, sure.

Kim: It’s a theory. What do you think is, are you asking someone to help you, or are you asking the universe to change to where you know where it is? 

Lane: Yeah, I wonder that too. (both laugh)  I tend to think that there are smaller, like local spirits who are really willing to like be helpful sometimes. Yeah, I never have really gotten into the idea of one big spirit like God or a, you know, or any equivalent to that of like why some big distant omniscient being would give a fuck if I find my keys, right? 

Kim: Yeah, that’s a problem I have with deity

Lane: Right? Like I just don't, I don't know that. Yeah, to me, like I'm an animist. And so, you know, to me, like it's much easier, it makes more sense, and is politically aligned for me to imagine that the spirit world is not organized all that differently from our world, and that there are spirits with varying degrees of power, different interests, different loyalties, different localities, that could be convinced to do different things and may want to interact with you, may not want to interact with you, may have their own goals, may not have any goals, may just want to like make mischief, or whatever, but like have their own thing going on. And you know, back to morality, like that makes more sense to me. Yeah, there could be coalitions of spirits that have more influence, are like consolidated and can make good things happen or bad things happen or good things for billionaires happen, bad things for us happen. And it's not like, oh, why would God allow this horrible thing to happen? It’s just like, what spirits are being fed?  Like, what spirits are, um, yeah, being supported and fed and, um...

Kim: Who's getting paid?

Lane: Yeah, basically. So, it's just sort of like, I don't know, the forces of evil in terms of, like, political evils are a lot more more organized. And I don't know, spiritually connected in a lot of ways, too. Like it's really… yeah it's frustrating to me the left is really dismissive of spirituality in general yeah it's because it's like we are missing out on a lot of power there, and you know. Yeah. We need to be more organized and more spiritually connected. 

Kim: This is kind of why I still call myself atheist but also will do this work. 

Lane: Yeah yeah. 

Kim: I just don't feel like the term God just sounds kind of not like what I believe. 

Lane: Yeah, no, I'm with you. I don't believe in any gods. So I don't call myself a pagan or a Wiccan or anything like that either. I just really don't have anything to do with any of of that. Like polytheism? I don’t believe in any of them. I believe in spirits, but I don’t believe any of them are like, cat special. (laughs) 

Kim: YEAH! (laughs) Yeah, yes. How would you say your practice has changed your life? Or would you, because it is just your life?

Lane:  Yeah Yeah, um, I think it has made me really have to have a different relationship to like fears and desires. Like I would say, you know, the power in using magic is it just sort of like expands the edge of your agency a bit. And if you have a bit more agency, you kind of have to know and take responsibility for what you want and what you're going to do with it. And so like, I guess I hadn't realized that a lot of my fears were like fears of my own power, fears of the responsibilities that I would have if I got what I wanted in life. Yes, just, you know, a fear, like a genuine fear of success, because like, then what? You know?I don't know. I think I have often lived in a way that kept myself in survival mode so I wouldn't have to think about what I would do if I was in a better situation. And so then you know, yeah, I've had to really confront what do I actually want Because if it's always held off too well, I can't worry about that until after like I have enough to eat and I have a food over my head and like You know get out of this terrible relationship or whatever and that's always like keeping me focused on like the bare bones of life. If you're not, if you kind of get to a place where you're more secure then you start thinking about like well, what do I want, to, what would… do I want that's more than that? And that's kind of scary. So yeah, I guess, yeah, just questions about power and its use and desires, wanting more from life than just surviving. And I guess, too, it's made me have to confront the real discrepancies between having this sort of like individualistic, isolated, loner, outsider personality and these like deeply held beliefs in my community and interconnectedness politically. 

Kim: This is such a good conversation. I love that this is not what I usually talk about on the show. What would you say is the biggest motivator in your practice and has it changed since you first started? 

Lane: Yeah, it's definitely changed because when I first started it was all about like safety, protection. The very, very first spell that I ever tried was a banishing spell to protect myself from somebody and it worked so well that it scared me. Nobody died or anything. I just like, this person was someone I would dread hearing from like daily and then I did the spell and then I did not hear one word from them for like four months Which was it was bizarre and just like and then when I did hear from them like They were just like the kind of person that was always like oh So you didn't text me back like within an hour or whatever kind of person You know what I mean, and so you know when I finally did hear from them They didn't acknowledge any of that passage of time at all. They were just like oh, hey, I remembered it's your birthday, happy birthday. Like I heard from them on my birthday after not hearing them for four months, and it was just like happy birthday, and I was like what the fuck? Yeah, it was it was strange. But it, yeah, having that four month break actually gave me, like, I don't want to get really deep into it, but this person had a stranglehold over my life and I was pretty afraid of them. And just to have that break of four months where I wasn't living in fear of what they might do every day gave me the courage to just cut them off, cut them out of my life, like myself, like verbally, like, we're not friends anymore. And like, I'm not going to respond to you anymore. And it's over. But it took like the magic of having that for four months off, of not having this like relentless presence in my life to be able to get to where I could set that boundary, Because before that I just felt like completely inescapable. Like I was just like I just have to try to please this person as best I can so that they more or less leave me alone until I die, basically, is how I felt. And so the fact that the spell works like that just so like clearly and strongly scared me a bit. It just felt really powerful and I just, I don't know. I just felt like protection was sort of like my go-to like thing that was easy for me. But I, I think I really over used it. Like, I don't know, like, it was sort of like, cleansing a space would be become this like, banishing approach to cleansing a space that was like, well, I could clean my living room or I could drop an atomic bomb on it, right? It was just like too much, right? It was too much. And so I have backed off from that. But I do still use protection quite a lot, not because I don't feel safe, but like, so I'm 45. I'm not like out on the streets as an activist in the same way that I was in my 20s. I have two young children, like I had my children later in life. So I'm 45 with like young, young children and I'm a single parent. Like I cannot get arrested and not come home one night, right? Like no one else is here to take care of my kids. 

Kim: Plus it’s harder to run when you're older.

Lane: My knees! (laughs)  Yeah, so I'm just not active in the same way that I was when I was getting arrested and stuff, but I'm in touch with young activists now who kind of like a little bit treat me as a mentor, or like run questions by me that they have and things like that, which is really nice. Folks in their 20s. And like just recently somebody sent me a message on Signal that was like I'm going into this situation where arrest is possible. Can you, you know, offer some help with that, right? And I was like, yes, absolutely. So I have used protection magic for other people in that way and I love to be asked to do that. I wouldn't do it. I typically don't like use spells without permission, but if someone asked me like can I have a little protection going into this action? Absolutely. I'd love to do that. I'd love to be asked to do that. And, you know, typically getting arrested is not really that big of a deal. It certainly wasn't for me being a white person. It's like, oh, I'm going to be in jail for a night. Big fucking deal. But the person who asked me is Black. And that is like having an encounter with the police is always carries a lot more risk if you're Black, obviously. And so that this person would ask me for that kind of protection. And like, I feel really honored that they would ask me and I felt glad to be able to do it. And I was like, you know, I can't promise that you won't be arrested, but to the very best of my strength and ability, you will not be harmed in this action and they weren't that turned out they weren't arrested and they weren't harmed and it was all good um, but it's like yeah I feel like protection magic probably is my strongest and like It makes sense that that's what I was first called to and i'm happy to use it in ways to help others now than to just be like so self-protective and overprotective of myself like I was in the beginning. 

Kim: I do think it's scary when something actually works.

Lane:  Yeah, it can be. 

Kim: We’ve been raised our whole life to not believe that it will, and to be, “you're just crazy and playing. Okay, Merlin.”

Lane: Right.

Kim: Do you ever feel like you have imposter syndrome when it comes to your practice?

Lane: this is probably the most annoying answer to this question, and I might sound like a really big dick, but I don't experience imposter syndrome. I can explain that if you want.  It comes usually from one of two places and one would be sort of like society telling you that you don't belong and internalizing that and people around you also internalizing that and treating you like you don't belong. So it's not like it's all in your head, like. Like if you know you're a gender marginalized person or a person of color or whatever, and like people are treating you like you don't belong in your job, that's not you having imposter syndrome, that's people like internalizing white supremacy, right, and treating you like you don't belong there. So that's one source of imposter syndrome. And then another source of imposter syndrome, I think can also be like unearned privilege. Like when you, if you're white and like male or male adjacent, like I am, and like everybody just tells you you're great all the time when you're just completely mediocre, then you can also get imposter syndrome from that because like, you haven't had to, like, I don't know, you might have guilt about the position that you're in, not having had to really like, work that hard to get there, or even if you've like, stolen from other people or whatever. Depends on the source of it, but like and you may have a mix of both. But as long as like you're confident in yourself and like I don't give a fuck what other people think about me in terms of like society telling you that you're not, you know, up to the standards of like white supremacist patriarchy or whatever, if you don't give a fuck about that and you build up confidence in yourself. And if you act with integrity and you do whatever you can to push back against unearned privilege and are conscious about doing that, then I don't think there's any reason to have imposter syndrome. And, um, so I pretty much consciously try to do both of those things and be like, I don't give a fuck about what you think about trans people or whatever. And also like I recognize that I have a lot of white privilege, which I do a lot to push back against not just like in my head but like the last job I had I made sure to hire queer people, people of color, queer people of color, in a department that had always only hired white women. And to replace myself with a queer person of color when I left and just to sort of like change policy while I was there, that would give more opportunity. Like they required a master's degree, which social workers tend to mostly be white women. And they're like, you have to have a master's degree. So they were always hiring white women. And I got rid of that requirement when I was there to be like, there's no reason why people in this department have to have a master's degree just to do like HIV testing. Like there's plenty of people in this institution that are more than qualified, who have been working here for years and years and years, who have no way to move up because they don't have a master's degree, but they have been here forever. They're perfectly competent, and we don't need that requirement. So I got rid of it when I was there. So that's just like an example of like materially, like, doing what you can to dismantle white privilege, and I try to do that however I can, whenever I can, wherever I can. And so, you know, it's just like, that helps. That helps to feel like I belong where I am, you know?

Kim: Yes. That's amazing. That's awesome. Off topic, but I can't help it. It's who I am. 

Lane: Go for it. 

Kim: I'm an occupational therapy assistant, and they recently changed the requirements to get certified. I believe. I haven't done that job in a few years. But they changed it from an associate's degree to a bachelor's degree. But the bachelor's, it wasn't actually covering anything occupational therapy related.

Lane: Yeah.

Kim: And that always bothered me.

Lane: Yeah, it's just like moving the goalposts for no real reason.

Kim: Yes. Yes. Why?

Lane: Well, why? I think it's because, you know, you get people who are in deeper debt. They've had to pay for that higher degree They're in deeper debt. So they're more chained to doing whatever you want them to do because they have to pay off their debt That's why.

Kim: Yep. Yeah, cuz I was able to just leave.

Lane: Right? Yeah, yeah, it's a real scam. Yeah I definitely move through the world with the confidence of like a mediocre white dude, cuz I definitely like will demand whatever the fuck I want wherever I am. I'll be like no you have to do this. it's like who the fuck are you? And it's just like, I thought I'm just telling you you need to get rid of this requirement and like now like we're doing, you know, the audio book recording for my book that's coming out. And I'm like I need you to get me a black-owned studio. It's like, I'm a first-time author, who the fuck am I to make these demands? And I don't know, it just doesn't occur to me to not say exactly what I want. And you know, obviously that's because of the privilege that I've had moving through this world, but at least I'm going to try my best to use it for good. 

Kim: Yeah. I got a grant by doing that because I was at work one day just like screwing off and thought, oh, maybe I'll apply for a grant for my business. And I did that thing where they say, to talk about yourself and your accomplishments the way that dipshit over there would. And so I did and it worked. 

Lane: Right. Yes. t works!

Kim: It's really weird.

Lane: Yeah. 

Kim: But if you're doubting yourself and you're like, oh, I had nobody, I don't, I couldn't possibly do that. Listen to Chad over there talking, telling you how great he is at lacrosse and use that in your own self. 

Lane: Right. Yep.

Kim: That's judgy. Oh, never mind.

Lane: So? (laughs) 

Kim: (Laughs) Okay. I'm just acknowledging for people who are going to come in and say, yeah, but you're doing it right now. Yes, I am. I am acknowledging that.

Lane: Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I'm not totally against judging and gatekeeping and some of these things that people hate so much. Sometimes there's a certain degree of those things. Like, I don't know, is it judgment or is it discernment? Like, I don't know, like once people are like, I don't want you in my life or whatever, it's like, depending on whose side of the story you hear, right? It's either someone being like, judgy and mean or they're having good discernment about about a person Not being in their space. I don't know. Yeah, it's just it's knowing It's no it's whichever side of the story you're on I guess 

Kim: Mhmmm. What brings you the most joy in your practice?

Lane: Actually just synchronicities. I think… just synchronicities, like I just get really tickled by wynchronicities and noticing synchronicities all the time. Just I don't know I feel a lot of times like information just comes to me in words, especially I'll just like… the right book will come to me, or the right quote will come to me, or something. Or just like in usually, in like a collection of things at once in a way that like makes them really easy to link them together in a like a really interesting way, or just like, oh, if I hadn't found this, like right around the same time as this, I never would have linked those things. I don't know, like, whatever, you know what a synchronicity is, I don't have to explain it. But it's just like those little things just really tickle me. I don't know. I love that shit.

Kim: It’s exciting. It’s validating.

Lane: Yeah, it’s fun.

Kim: Yes. What is your favorite tool in your practice? And it does not have to be a physical object. 

Lane: Yeah, I really think words. Um, you know, I'm a writer. And like I was saying earlier about about the voice, I would say like putting things into words whether it's spoken or in writing as the way that I Make things happen for the most Yeah, whether whether it's just like find this now or whatever or just like writing I Wouldn't say that I wrote my book In the shifted reality of making it a spell. I probably could. I guess I didn't really dare to. But, um, I don't know, like, yeah, words are the tool that I would say I use the most magically, like, I don't know, like, I wrote a love letter to somebody last year. And like I told you, feel pretty strongly about not impinging on other people's autonomy. So there wasn't a spell embedded in that love letter that would like, compel them in any particular way. But there was a degree of magic in it that kind of like held me to it. I said something like, you know, not to be really cheesy, but this is what I said. It's like, you know, my heart is yours for claiming, you know, now or a year from now. And I don't know that I intended it when I wrote it, but I felt it when I wrote it, with that there was a spell in that. And I feel like when that year is over, then that spell will be broken, and my heart will be mine again, because the person did not claim it. And I, you know.

Kim: Oh, my heart now, oh, my heart!

Lane: Yeah, I gave them the letter like early last year. So we're getting pretty close now to where the year is up and like it's helpful to me that that was part of part of it in that I can sort of put a time limit again working with time. There's like a time limit on that heartbreak, you know, of just like, okay, um, when I said you have until, you have, it's yours a year.  Now or a year from now, but I didn't say any more than that. And so when the year is up, like, that's it, you missed your chance and I can move on. So I guess I got off topic, but like words, words are, are the main tool, I think, for me.

Kim:  It's very strange for me to talk to you as somebody who works with time because it is so hard for me to deal with time and remember time and know how much time has passed. It just baffles me. My brain doesn't retain it right, or the same way, or in a way that is helpful to me. 

Lane: Yeah, I think I have also struggled with that too, and I think approaching it magically made it more flexible to me, and that made it easier to understand actually. (laughs) Like yeah, I don't know. Being something, thinking of time as something you could play with made it a little easier for me than to have this rigid like, oh, it's only like clock time and deadlines and shit like that, that I can never seem to work with. 

Kim: Did you say chironically? 

Lane: Chirological time, like Jupiter-type time. 

Kim: That is so interesting. I’m super gonna look that up after this because that I can do.

Lane: Yeah, right?

Kim: It’s just the tracking of it that I can't.

Lane: Yeah, yeah! Yeah, forget the tracking of it. It's like the opportune moment, and you can like feel that, right? It's like oh, this is the most, right? Yeah. and like and it's fun I don't know, do you like look at planetary hours ever?

Kim: No because that's one more thing stacked on top of a list of other things. 

Lane: Right, yeah. But it's like sometimes fun. To constantly track it, no, I definitely don't. And I'm not that organized. But when we were doing this, I was like, oh, I wonder what the planetary hours are for the couple hours that we'll be talking. And I was like, oh, it's Jupiter and Saturn. That kind of inspired me to talk about those things. 

Kim: I think that's so neat.

Lane: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think it has to be super like methodical and organized and all of that. I'm not great at that. But yeah, if it just inspires something or like you happen to check it one time or like whatever, it's it's fun.It's kind of fun.

Kim: How do you pull yourself out of a magical slump? Or do you feel like you've had any?

Lane: Yeah, I think Well, I don't know. It's a little hard for me to tell the difference between a magical slump and just an overall slump. I struggle with depression, pretty serious depression my whole life. So if I'm in a slump of some kind It usually involves like, you know a lack of interest and there's sort of like apathy about and powerlessness feeling about a lot of things, not just magic. And so, you know, part of it is like, how do I get out of a slump? Just sort of like my regular mental health tools, like go for a walk, talk to a friend, whatever, find something that I know makes me laugh or something like that, those kind of little things. But also, like, on a deeper level I would say, you know I was saying earlier how magic has sort of had gotten me to have to face like desire in my life, like what do I desire beyond just like bare survival, and so getting in touch with that, with desire, is something that gets me out of the slump because I feel like when you know what you want, spirits sort of like like to conspire to help you and like throw things your way. And then you get those little synchronicities and things like that, but when you're not clear. You don't know; you're like I don't know. What do I want? I don't know, I don't like anything. I'm not interested in anything then you don't get those things and so it's sort of like returning to desire. It's like sharpening that and being like, well, what do I want? And it doesn't have to be always a selfish desire, a self-interested desire. I very strongly desire to end white supremacy, for one example. And just sort of refocusing on a really strong desire can then inspire things to do and magic to make and things like that. And then looking for spirits to help you with it and then seeing those synchronicities and all and like bringing the magic back, you know.

Kim:  It is so interesting to hear you talk about all this stuff, but also in the back of my head, know that you don't call yourself a witch or use that term for yourself. It's fascinating for me. I keep thinking it as you're talking. What is something that you wish was discussed more in the witch community?

Lane: Yeah, I would be so interested to hear more discussion of morality outside of like, just just Christian morality because I feel like the traditional witches that I know, which would really who I think they would self-describe themselves as embracing evil, are some of the most principled moral people that I know. Like according to my morals, like they are the ones who, like, as opposed to like love and light folks who just like really do not speak out about injustice as much as these like, you know, quote unquote dark magic witches do. And so it just would really interest me to hear. I don't know. Because I just like, witches with respect to Christianity or like obviously outside of that moral framework, and I would just love to hear them talk about what, if any, moral compass traditional witches see themselves as having. Because it doesn't seem to me that they, it's random, or just like immoral, like being mean and violent and terrible just to be that. Although maybe some of them do that. I don't know. But like I see often like a pretty principled stance against injustice, which to me has a moral basis. and that I don't see as consistently with like love and light witchy types. And so that's something that really, really interests me. And I would love to know what some more witches who kind of align explicitly with evil, demonic spirits, that kind of thing, would say about their own morality. I'd be super interested in that.

Kim:  Are there people who align with things that they consider evil? 

Lane: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think there's a lot of witches who define witchcraft as being malefic, bad, you know. Devilish.

Kim: Witches? Like the witchcraft itself is bad?

Lane: Well, like… doing witchcraft is doing things that are outside the generally conceived notion of what’s good.

Kim: Huh. That's blowing my mind. Maybe… I don't know if I'm if we're communicating in a way that I'm on the same page. Like witchcraft itself is bad? Or that baneful magic exists and they use it?

Lane: Yeah, yeah. 

Kim: Okay.

Lane: Right, like if you are someone who uses baneful magic, and you're like, in the spiritual world, like, I'm a baddie, right? Like, right? Like, what? And like, clearly, Christianity is not their moral compass obviously like So what is that's my question? 

Kim: Oooh.  I even hesitate to say I do baneful magic because I haven't really seen the need, although I have a couple times done things that... I don't know it's like if I did some distract like one of our, when my husband was deployed, the local police chief was really helpful to them and they were friends. And when everybody pulled, when the US pulled out of Afghanistan, they were hunting him. And so we tried really hard to bring him here. So I did work to protect him while we were trying to pull him out, but also to distract and harass and upset the Taliban who, people who were hunting him. 

Lane: Mm-hmm 

Kim: And I guess people would consider that baneful, because it was not a friendly thing, and I did involve like bad stuff.

Lane: Yeah, but I mean, I think there are witches who certainly consider like baneful magic to be like their specialty, right? Like…

Kim:  I didn't know that. I guess I'm naive. I know I'm naive.

Lane: Okay. Well, yeah-

Kim:  I just like, it's just odd to me that people would say I'm going to be bad on purpose. I don't understand that. I also want to hear what they talk about then.

Lane:  I think it would be cool to discuss it because it's like, what is meant by bad and what is meant by evil and what is meant by... because if it's like, well, what I mean by bad is being against Christian authority, being anti-authoritarian, then yeah. I mean that's how I – when I say like you have to be bad to be good politically, like what's what I mean? It's like you have to, you have to rebel against the empire, right? Like the empire tries to define what good is, which is being a nice little polite voter, right? Upholding white supremacy, and like, they consider me bad, right? An extremist, right ? They consider people who want to end settler colonialism to be terrorists, right? And Like yeah, we're being bad on purpose because we want the end to Empire and settler colonialism. And so like in the witchcraft world, too, there's people being bad on purpose, you know, against Christian goodness, Christian definitions of goodness. Just in the interest of not only defining yourself by what you’re against, I would just be interested to hear from them, what is their moral compass, if they have one. Or if they’re like absolutely not. I don’t believe in morality, I have no moral guidance, I just do whatever. I don’t know. I have no idea what they’d say, I’d be really interested. 

Kim: Come on my show, come talk about that to me, people.  I want to know what that,  I want to know that too!

Lane: And I feel like the answer to those questions will help me decide if I'm a witch or not, honestly. 

Kim: See? It helps somebody out. Come on my show and talk to me about this stuff.

Lane: I'm definitely about doing bad to do what I think is good, which would be like ending empire. 

Kim: Yeah!

Lane: But like, I don't know if… I don't know. Yeah, that's in the political realm and in the spiritual realm, if truly being bad means being like having no morals, period, like I can't get with that personally. 

Kim: I can't, it's hard for me to fathom, that so… yeah. 

Lane: Yeah, but I don’t know. If someone is like chaos for me means no moral allegiances, or compasses, period-

Kim: Genuine anarchy.

Lane:  then I don’t know. I don’t think I could do that. I know I couldn’t do that. I’m actually a pretty morally rigid person. I’m not saying that’s a good thing, but I’ve always had pretty rigid sense of right and wrong in me, and always have had. a witch on the far end of the spectrum of like Being willing to do baneful magic means Like no consistent morality whatsoever. Like I definitely could not be on that end of the spectrum.

Kim:  More stuff I definitely need to ponder. This is interesting. 

Lane: It's just, you know, my background is in philosophy. So like, this is just like-

Kim:  I can tell and I'm loving it!

Lane: Yeah, yeah. What's really funny is like, I think of myself as being pretty strictly moral, not Christian moral, but like, anti-white supremacy, moral, anti-injustice moral, but in philosophy class when I was, you know, late teens, early 20s, they really like branded me as this immoral person and like, they're like, you're a moral relativist. And they thought it was such a like, I don't, it's like they delighted in the fact that like I was the only one that they knew who was that quote unquote immoral. Because like, I guess it was just one class where I was the only one who didn't agree that it was like 100 percent morally right to have like imperialist intervention to put a stop to cultures that practice female circumcision. And so they were like, you're a terrible person. And you're a moral relativist, you think morality is like, culturally specific. And I was like, yeah, I guess that is what I think, because I don't, it doesn't feel right to me that the US just gets to just impose their cultural norms on other people. And like, male circumcision happens here and-

Kim: Exactly. EXACTLY!

Lane: …no other country is going to invade here to stop people from doing that. So like, what the fuck? So anyway, it was like, I was like this token moral relativist that they like to trot out at debates or whatever that they thought was just this funny, like delightful, silly thing that I was. It's just funny,  they considered it to be immoral and I was just like I don't know. I just have a different frame of reference I wasn't political yet. And so I didn't know really what it was. This was I was anti-imperialist But I didn't know to like put that name on it. But um, anyway, it's beside the point.

Kim: I wish I was in that philosophy class instead of the one I was in because it was super boring which is the opposite of what I was expecting because I was ready to talk about this stuff and we just… it was not fun and I didn't have a good time and I never took another class in philosophy. 

Lane: Oh man.

Kim:  I'm sad, maybe I'll take another one.

Lane: Yeah, there’s a lot of real assholes who take philosophy classes and I'm sure that I was one of them, but like, people just really like, full of themselves and their own ideas and love the sound of their own voice in philosophy classes in college.

Kim: Think of your 3 biggest influences on your practice, whether it is a book or a person or a pet or a theory.

Lane: Sure. I mean, I would name Jupiter first of all, just like working with Jupiter, just in terms of like time, like we talked about, but also learning a lot about releasing control, like not having to like over control and over protect and sort of like… letting go, letting magic work, trusting the process kind of thing, Jupiter has really helped me with that. And with having gratitude and with dreaming bigger, like that desire piece of like dreaming about more than just surviving, Jupiter has helped me with that. So Jupiter is one. Althea Sebastiani, is a teacher that I have had that I really really respect and admire and I love her work so much her classes are super super accessible. And she also has a book coming out this year called Alive With Spirits. I think it's the the Something and practice of animistic witchcraft. I can't remember what the other word in the title is. But anyway, it's about animism and witchcraft and she's a fantastic teacher, a really really experienced witch and I think she's awesome. And so she has influenced me a lot. And then anot, and he talks a lot in his writing about like really, really visceral experiences with spirits, and it really pushes me out of my comfort zone and reminds me not to be quite so like cool and distant and abstract about stuff. It reminds me about, to get my hands dirty and to like just sort of like the intimacy that's involved in spirit work because spirit relationships are relationships, and the way that I tend to like pull back from intimacy in interpersonal relationships also plays out in spirit work, and the way he just really digs in and is really viscerally and sensually involved with spirit work which comes through in his writing, just like it's really challenging to me in a good way. And I really admire his work and his writing a lot. So those are, those are the three that I would name. 

Kim: Oh, you just… an epiphany just happened. 

Lane: Oh, good. I love that.

Kim: There's so much for me to process when I get out of here. The whole thing where you're hesitant to engage intimately with people, I am the same way. And maybe that's something I should work on. 

Lane: Yeah, yes. Knowing you should and then doing it, I'm also at that crossroads, so shall we say. Yes. (both laugh)

Kim: Ouch, my feelings. Okay. Do you have advice for someone just starting out with a magical practice? 

Lane: I would say, like, you don't have to know that you want to be a witch. You can explore magic without it being a foregone conclusion that you will become a witch. Like, it could be an exploratory process. And I would also say that whatever it is that you want to learn, I personally think that it's better to learn with others in community just for accountability and safety and cultural context than to be exclusively self-taught. I think that's something that in modern witchcraft it's really encouraged, this whole like solitary witchcraft and teaching yourself like in secret and private or whatever. And what's really lost in that is like initiation, right? Initiation by someone more experienced. And I think that's a real loss, like people, I understand, like a lot of people are coming from religious trauma, and, you know, spiritual leaders and gurus and whatever being abusive, and so doing it on your own is very freeing. And I totally get that. I think that that's important. But then, when you can, if you can, being in community with others just offers that piece of like, it's just not you in your head, you know, making stuff up. Like, there's also like reality check that can happen with other people. There’s accountability, there’s discussing tradition and context and definitions and a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about. I don't know, it's just like in community you get to be pushed back on maybe what some of your own assumptions and prejudices are. And that's a good thing, you know. in a controlling or abusive way like it might have been in a church setting. Not that that's everybody's experience with church either, but like, you know, a lot of people I think find witchcraft leaving church spaces. But yeah, community. Community matters. And I also think like, magic would be so much more powerful if not isolated to like individuals’ little personal whims about what they want to use it for only in their own life, right? If we like, could harness it for thought larger things that would be great. 

Kim: I, it's infrequent but I have done group spells with people and it is, it's interesting how different it feels.

Lane:  I bet I haven't had that experience but I have I do have a tarot group that I belong to in Baltimore and we started doing collaborative readings so that it wasn't like a reader and a querent but like everybody's everybody pulls the card and everybody reads the card so we're all the reader and the querent at once and that's like I love that and that's so different from the like sort of therapy feeling relationship of the power dynamic between like reader and querent. It really opens it up to be more like almost like an organizing meeting, you know, it's really cool. So I can imagine like a group spell would be qualitatively quite a lot different, too. 

Kim: This is interesting because literally on the first, I decided that I wanted my group to, I mean, I admit, like I, I'm not the boss. I just thought of this and said, Hey, can we do this? And they said, yes. But we did a poll for the year and we all pulled a card for like, I threw everybody's name into a hat and pulled out 12 names with, And so we kind of did that and it's so interesting. And that is not, and I don't usually do tarot or anything. I'm starting to get into it because another member was, she does pulls a lot. And she said, hey, how about we all do this for the collective? And it's just been really interesting to see how people do it. And I think that's a really good thing. And she said, hey, how about we all do this for the collective? And it's just been really interesting and it's really helping me understand tarot more, honestly. 

Lane: Cool. It sounds fun. 

Kim: It so is. Thank you, Andrea. After seeing these questions and having talked to me, who do you think would be interesting for me to interview and have on the show? 

Lane: So the person that I thought of, their name is Kir Beaux and their handle on Instagram is itsqueermagic. Kir is absolutely delightful. I love them so much. They are just a joy to be around. I say be around, I only see them online. But if a little video pops up on my Instagram and it's them I'm just like so joyful to see them I think they're so fantastic I would love to hear how they answer these questions, they're just like a sunbeam, I love them so much, and but like a sunbeam but not in like the everybody get along kind of way. Like they're right on point, like, politically, too, but like, but joyful and wonderful and magical. They're a magical person. I would love to see them, hear how they answer your questions on the show if you look into them. 

Kim: Awesome. I actually just followed them on Instagram as you were talking. 

Lane: Cool. 

Kim: Is there anything else you wanted to bring up or any questions that you wanted to ask me? 

Lane: Well, I said as I said, my book is out in August. I am also going to be speaking at the Salem Witch Fest virtual salon in March So you can look out for an announcement for that I don't do that Like I don't do a lot of like teaching and lectures and stuff like that. But I am gonna speak at Salem Witchfest and that's going to be about a small portion of my book that's talking about, sort of like the title is something like the shapes of our stories. And so you're familiar with Tarot, the concept of the fool's journey. So I'm talking about changing our concept from a linear narrative, fool's journey, with the fool as a protagonist moving along the arcana until you get to sort of like the struggle with the devil and the climax of the of the tower and then on your way to enlightenment with the world like this linear journey in this story that we tell about tarot that kind of lends itself to using tarot for self improvement just because of the linear nature of that story and changing the shape of the story. So that instead of seeing the major arcana as this linear journey, seeing it as a space that's a spherical shape that puts more emphasis on the middle instead of the ends and just talking about how seeing tarot as a justice-centered sphere centered sphere instead of the fool's journey from start to be just from start to end how changing the shape of that story can lead us to ask different questions, cast different spells, just like do things differently than then when we're kind of led with this idea of a linear narrative.

Kim: And you said that's online? 

Lane: That is going to be Salem Witch Fest in March. Yeah, it is. It's a virtual conference. Okay, cool. That sounds interesting. And then next week, yeah, next week I think I'm going to announce this, but I'm going to have, I guess you call it a newsletter. I was going to start a Substack and then I decided not to use Substack because the owners of Substack were like, Nazis are good actually, and I was like, I can't. No judgment on anyone who's already using Substack, but for me, I just was like, they're like, it's good for society if Nazis have a platform-

Kim: What?!

Lane: …and I'm like dude, what? Like Zuckerberg is bad enough, but he's not like Nazis are good. Actually, like he's doing terrible like shadow banning of Palestinian voices and stuff. But he's not like with his full chest being like I want to give platforms to Nazis, right? Like I could not, I could not sign up. Like I did not already have a Substack and I was like I'm not signing up. I cannot, like me personally in my moral rigidity, cannot get with that. So I'm gonna use Buttondown, but it's gonna be like an essay publishing platform, basically, that I'm gonna announce on my Instagram next week and that's gonna be called Rebel Specters.

Kim: That's good!

Lane:  Yeah, so that's that's pretty much what I have lined up right now. That's, that's about it. 

Kim: Okay, so the last thing we do. So thing number one is please recommend something to the listeners, anything at all. It doesn't have to be witch related at all. 

Lane: I would recommend going to a protest. If you have never been to a protest, any protests, anything because I think it's, a lot of people have not actually been a part of one, or they think it's like the special, a special thing that activists do, and that activist is like the special class of other person that's not a regular person. And I think just go and be there. And it's, it's, it can be a spiritual experience, just being like feeling yourself as not particularly important in that you're just one of a big crowd, but at the same time, really important because you have made there be a crowd there instead of just like, you know, one or two people, right? I don't know. It's just like one of those experiences that I would hope anyone and everyone could have at some point. Just to know what it's like. 

Kim: That is one of the most interesting recs anybody's given. Huh. 

Lane: I think people will find that it feels different than they think it will feel. 

Kim: I think it will feel terrifying. But I'm afraid of everything, so.

Lane: Yeah… also there's also a lot of safety in numbers, so it depends on how you frame it I guess it doesn't have to be like a civil disobedience like getting arrested sort of protest it could be just like a rally you know let's practically just like a parade but you know it's like just being with a bunch of people who all feel the same way that you feel. And, but you're not on the spot. Like, that's what I love about it. It's like, I don't have to make a speech. I'm nobody's looking at me in particular, but I'm part of making this thing. And we're all on the same side and we all are saying the same thing. It feels good. 

Kim: That actually sounds awesome.

Lane:  Yeah, it does feel awesome. 

Kim: So the second thing is, please tell me a story.

Lane:  Sure. Yeah. So like when I think of a standout memory, I've not done a lot of traveling in my life, but when I got married, I happened to marry somebody from a higher social class than me, and we're not together anymore. And there was a lot that was not worth it about getting married. But going on this honeymoon trip was one of the things that was really, really worth it to me (laughs) as I got to go to Morocco, which is some place that I had wanted to go my entire life, to see the Sahara Desert. So we took a cab, basically, from Marrakesh, which is a major city in Morocco, to like a small village at the edge of the Sahara Desert where we would then like ride camels out into the desert and spend the night in the desert. But on the way from Marrakesh to where we were going, there was a major sandstorm and I was just riding in the back of this cab and there was literally like zero visibility just sand all around and the guy just kept going. And I was like, I can't see any road. I can't see anything. It was the closest thing to being in outer space that I could possibly imagine. And I was like am I gonna die? But I was like the cab driver is not doesn't even seem worried, and I was like how is this possible? How is this happening? I felt like I was floating through space. I felt like out of my body all I could do was just sit there and trust. Like what am I gonna do, open the door and like jump out of the cab into a sandstorm? No, I'll just get buried in sand, right? So I'm just like in this car waiting to see if we arrived, and like it was the most bizarre out of body. Like complete silence, just like literally like it's, if outer space was the color of sand. It was like floating through space. And eventually we got to this guy's house. He just drove us to his house. But how?  How? I have no idea how you could possibly navigate that. It's just like, whenever I think back on that, I'm just like, that is the most unexplainable thing I have ever experienced. And so that was like spiritual in a way. I really just had to trust that this guy knew what he was doing. And I just was quiet. I didn't want to distract him. I was just like, just kind of see what happens, you know. And it was one of the most amazing experiences of my life of just like absolute helplessness and trust and wonder and just like being in this place I've always wanted to go, having to have, but was really truly incredible. 

Kim: Yeah, I don't, yeah. That sounds terrifying.

Lane:  Yeah, it was weirdly terrifying and peaceful at the same time. I cannot really describe it. It was so strange. Well, when you give up and acknowledge it, I mean, I was like, what could I do? Right? What could I possibly do? 

Kim: Only fractionally related. Have you ever been to Colorado? 

Lane: Once, yes, but it was just like in a hotel for a work conference. Okay. I didn't really see it. 

Kim: Imagine a cliff. 

Lane: Uh-huh. 

Kim: And it's pretty far down. And there's a swing. And they put you in it and you're like Superman and you're in this swing. 

Lane: Already no. (both laugh) No. 

Kim: And they pull you way back and then they just let you go. So you swing out over, it's Royal Gorge in Colorado.

Lane: Oh HELL no.

Kim: It's terrifying, but it was like that where you're like okay, well I'm up here now, there's nothing I can do but…

Lane: Oh my god I'm scared of heights, that's a definitely a no for me.

Kim: Me too!  I would never ever ever do it again but I feel it was the sort of helplessness, but also okay well I might as well try to have a good time. 

Lane: Yeah.

Kim: Hopefully, I don't die. Right. I get that sort of giving up and knowing, okay, I don't have any power here. 

Lane: Right. 

Kim: I don't have to be.

Lane: I think it was meaningful for me that part of it was also trusting another person. Like, trusting the driver was a big part of it. It was like, I have to trust that he doesn't have a death wish, right? Or that he knows what he's doing, right? Like, I just have to believe that, like, he can and wants to get us out of this, right? 

Kim: That would have been really hard for me. 

Lane: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's, yeah, it was profound.

Kim:  I don't envy you that.

Lane:  Yeah, like I can't believe that I didn't panic.I don't know. 

Kim: Oh wow, good for you. I didn't know that didn't happen. Good for you! (laughs)

Lane:  No, I really, I just sat there quietly, was like I don't want to distract him. I don't want to do anything to put us in any more jeopardy, right? (both laugh) Like, I don't, certainly don't want to pull focus onto myself, when this person needs to use whatever capacities they have to get through this. Magic, whatever it may be, to navigate the situation. Yeah, I didn't want to interrupt.So… Shut up. (both laugh) 

Kim: Well, thank you so much for being on the show and for the story.It was really interesting to talk to you and I have so much, so much to ponder now.

Lane:  Great, thank you for having me. It was fun for me too.

Kim:  Good. And I will see you on the internet everybody. Okay bye!

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