Kathy of Sword & Moon Tarot

 In this episode I'm talking to Kathy of Sword & Moon Tarot. We talked about circle casting, witchcraft as science, and of course, tarot.

instagram.com/swordandmoontarot/

Transcript

Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where every Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft. Your Average Witch is brought to you by Clever Kim's Curios. In this episode I'm talking to Kathy of Sword & Moon Tarot. We talked about circle casting, witchcraft as science, and of course, tarot.

Now let's get to the stories!

Kim: Hi, Kathy. Welcome to the show.

Kathy: Hi.

Kim: Can you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you?

Kathy: Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm Kathy of Sword and Moon Tarot. Honestly, just search that in Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok, and I'll probably come up. Corporate stooge, not by choice, singer, performer, lover, fighter, all of those sorts of things. So yeah, that's a little bit of who I am.

Kim: What does it mean to you when you call yourself a witch?

Kathy: Honestly, the first word that came to mind was freedom. It is freedom to do what calls to me. I grew up Catholic, and Catholicism does not have a lot of freedom in it, at least the Catholicism I experienced. And so being a witch is the freedom to pick and choose what really speaks to me, as opposed to, you know, mass. You have to sit now, you have to stand, you have to kneel, you have to pray, you have to say these words. If I don't want to do that, I don't have to. So it is a lot of freedom to follow what I want to do and what feels good to me.

Kim: So I know you said just now that you grew up Catholic, but do you feel like you had any witchy stuff happen as a kid that your family might have done and just besides how witchy Catholicism is?

Kathy: Yeah, no kidding. Not really, but there's a story that often gets told about my late aunt that I feel like if we had gotten to really talk to each other before she passed, after I started this journey, we would identify in a lot of ways. She was standing and talking with my dad and my grandfather and she started talking about how everything, it's kind of a Pocahontas-y moment, where she says, you know, the rocks, the trees, the creatures all have a name, a spirit, a way about them. And she, you know, this is my theory, this is what I feel and after she was done explaining herself, my grandfather who was smoking a cigarette said, your theory is wrong, flicked a cigarette and walked away. And it's told as like a funny story, but I wish that I had gotten a chance to really have that conversation with her. She passed when I was about 22, I believe. And I didn't start this journey until about 28, 27-ish. So I wish I had been able to experience that with her. And that's the only story I can think of that kind of relates to that sort of thing.

Kim: That's cool. Animist before people really said the word. That's nice, I like it.

Kathy: Mhmm, exactly. Well, and it was, the way it's told is that very, that the colors of the wind moment, every rock, every tree, every creature has a name or whatever she says. It was a lot like that.

Kim: Can you introduce us to your practice? Do you have any consistent rituals or even if you don't call it a ritual, consistent things you do?

Kathy: Yeah, so I put out a bottle every full moon for moon water. And mainly what I use that for is in the morning, I use it to brew my coffee. And I put my intentions into it every day. What do I need for that day? Whether it's patience to deal with the children, whether it's determination to have a good day at work, any number of things. I do that pretty consistently. I also try to do a tarot spread at the beginning of every month, just to kind of recap last month and what can I bring into this month and things like that. And then like home cleansing, I have a very old house and I can't open my windows because they are painted shut. They're probably very breakable so we're safe but I can't easily burn things and have it be aired out very well and the smell gives my husband headaches. So I use some sprays that are made from moon water and herbs soaking and everything to cleanse the home as well as sigils on doors and windows with cascarilla is what I like to use. So those are my consistent things. There's other things that aren't quite as regular that I try to do.

Kim: I do, I don't call it cascarilla, but I do eggshell stuff.

Kathy: Eggshells, yeah.

Kim: And salt.

Kathy: That's what I was introduced to it as, that name. So I've always, yeah, yeah.

Kim: And like sound stuff.

Kathy: Yeah I have a teeny tiny little bell that I do that with sometimes.

Kim: Would you say that witchcraft has changed your life?

Kathy: Absolutely. I think that there were a number of years after I left the Catholic or Christian Church where I felt kind of lost. I knew that I wanted to have some sort of belief system, but I didn't know where to land. I grew up Catholic. I then changed to a Christian church, and then I changed to a non-denominational but still pretty Christian church. And then I left that behind after some pretty what they would call trials and tribulations that quote-unquote God put me through. And I was like, no, it's not for me. But I knew I needed something and a good friend of mine said, try this out. And I tried it out and it felt right. And what I mentioned earlier about freedom, it's given me the freedom to have a belief that I can stand behind and I can really believe in. Like I didn't really believe in a Christian God, but this, I do.

Kim: This is not one of my usual questions, but are you Wiccan?

Kathy: No, so I honestly don't really know what label I would give myself. Almost like scientific, but also eclectic. So part of my belief system is manipulation of the atoms and, you know, electrons and neutrons in the world around us, which is manifestation. It's like a butterfly effect. If I light this candle and it heats the air around it, what effect is that going to have on me and my life that as well as scientists are saying that the universe is still expanding after the big boom. And that is so much energy in our universe, even within our own earth and our sun. And if the sun gives plants food and they can grow from it, why can't I grow from the energy of the sun in different ways? Not physically get taller or bigger, but I can grow in different ways if I use it right, because the plants have to use it right. So it's a mixture of like science, but also believing in that science and utilizing that science to manifest and bring what I'm looking for. It's a whole mix of stuff. So I don't really have a title for my kind of witchy, but that's kind of the basis of it.

Kim: I have a shirt by Pigmentology, who I think has changed her name, but it says Science Witch, Mundane Before Magic, and I love that shirt and I miss that account, but yes, yes.

Kathy: I need that! I love that you are similar in belief, it sounds like. I also think it's like, I heard it called spicy psychology once, where if you've heard of the superhero pose, if you stand with your hands on your hips and your feet wide for two minutes, it's been shown to increase your confidence. Like, literally in the brain chemistry. And that mixed with the other beliefs that I have and a little bit of magic spread in there is to me another part of my belief is the spicy psychology of believing in it and making it come true.

Kim: I think it's awfully bold of somebody to say, "magic is bullshit" when changing your body position can make those differences. So, come on.

Kathy: Exactly!

Kim: You don't know everything, homie. Don't talk shit about what I do.

Kathy: Well, and we as a society, as humans, we don't know everything either. So, who's to say that this isn't real? Who's to say that I can't manipulate the air around me? You don't know that. We're still figuring stuff out every day.

Kim: Remember when they used to bleed us to get the demons out? Come on.

Kathy: I know.

Kim:  You don't know You know what we have access to with today's science.

Kathy: For now, yeah. We'll see what happens in another 10 years.

Kim: Exactly. I don't... that's terrifying.

Kathy: I know. I know. I have three-year-old twins and I think about what access, what knowledge.

Kim: Holy shit, that's a lotta kids.

Kathy: It really is. In the store, people say, you must have your hands full. I'm like, you have no idea. But I think about what knowledge they are going to have access to in the next 5, 10, 15, by the time they're in high school? What? That blows my mind.

Kim: Well, let's move back.

Kathy: I go on tangents. (both laugh)

Kim: Me too.

Kathy: Yeah, I noticed. (both laugh)

Kim: What is the biggest motivator in your practice and has it changed since when you first started?

Kathy: This is actually a really good segue because the biggest motivator in my practice is curiosity. Not only learning about new ways to practice, learning about new herbs or crystals or whatever, but also learning what I can do. Learning what I'm capable of. Learning what my life direction, like where it's going, where I can change that path, things like that. So I'm an incredibly curious person. My name is Kathy. Curiosity killed the cat-thy. So, yeah, I always say that and it really hasn't changed because when I first started, I started with tarot. I was like, what's this all about? I'm going to get a deck. I'm going to figure this out and it just grew from there. So curiosity is it, man.

What's the first magical thing you ever did? That's not on there, I just thought of it just now.

Kathy: No, that's okay. The first magical thing I ever did really was, Tarot is where I started because I hadn't really looked into it at all ever until then. It was funny, this was during 2020 when everything was shut down, but late summer of 2020 and my husband and I got a hotel room to kind of, we were fostering a child at the time and got him to a relief family and we went and got a hotel room, had a staycation because it was our anniversary. And I brought my brand new tarot deck and I just sat down and I spread all the cards out and I researched it and then I did my first reading and it made zero sense. But two weeks later, something happened and I can't really remember what it was, but I remember looking back and thinking, wait a second, that makes sense now. And it was so thrilling to me that it was like proof, basically, that this is something, I gotta figure out what it is because I was brand new but this is something and It was really cool.

Kim: I do not have memories like that with tarot. (both laugh) I'm still trying to figure that out. Thanks to Andrea for all her help in that.

Kathy: It's my favorite, because of experiences like that.

Kim: That's cool.

Kathy: Mhmmm.

Kim: What's your biggest struggle with witchcraft?

Kathy: Consistency. Everyone goes through slumps, but I also have ADHD, so that doesn't help with building habits or building rituals. And so, like I mentioned earlier, I'll do the moon water thing, but I'll forget to put it out or-

Kim: Bring it back?

Kathy: ...I don't cleanse-What was that?

Kim: Or bring it back in.

Kathy: I've had that happen. Okay, I live in Nebraska.

Kim: Oh no!

Kathy: It gets really cold. I put a glass bottle outside overnight and I filled it too much. The water froze and the bottle shattered. I felt so dumb. So I didn't have any moon water because I ain't going to use water with shards of glass in it. So, I'm going to go back to the moon water. So, um, yeah, it's, uh, building habits is tough, but when it's something like... my house feels a little bit stifled, then I'll do the cleansing or, you know, Hey, I haven't done a tarot reading this month, even if it's not the first of the month I'm gonna do it. But the holding to that consistency is a struggle for me.

Kim: Yeah.

Kathy:  I think for a lot of people. (both laugh)

Kim: That's one of the big that's one of the most popular answers.

Kathy: I've noticed in some episodes. Yeah I'm like oh no I'm repeating everybody, but it is.

Kim: You didn't say imposter syndrome which is the second biggest one, I think, maybe not in those words, but do you feel like you have it or deal with it and what do you do to not have it?

Kathy: I think that... I want to say yes and I want to say no. I don't know if I have imposter syndrome more of like, are they going to judge me for not believing that it's this kind of magic, for saying it's spicy psychology or it's science instead of just plain magic? So I guess it could be imposter syndrome, like I'm not witchy enough for some people.

Kim: You might be, but none of us are.

Kathy: I know, or you're too witchy for some people.

Kim: Yeah!

Kathy: It's either everything or nothing or nothing in between. It's wild. So the way that I deal with that is just coming back to where I started with, like I mentioned earlier, the curiosity, I'm not doing this for anyone's approval. I'm doing this because I find it fascinating and enjoyable and it helps me in my life. So just kind of reminding myself, I love this phrase, my little brother said it when he was like 13, but those who matter don't care. Those who care don't matter. So the people who care about how witchy you are don't matter. And the people who matter in your life aren't going to care.

Kim: Agreed.

Kathy: I say that a lot.

Kim: What brings you the most joy in your practice?

Kathy: This is going to sound weird, but helping others as opposed to like something to do with myself. But that's why I created my tarot business, was because the satisfaction I get when I do a spread for someone and their eyes go wide, or they're nodding along, or they say, you know, oh my God, that makes so much sense. And then they come back to me later and they say, this was so clear to me or this has come true or this, I understand it now. I am a big, I don't want to say people pleaser, but I enjoy helping others. And this is a way that I can, I kind of like specialize in this, I guess. I'm not an expert, but I'm really good at it if I want to toot my own horn. And having those reactions from people brings me immense joy.

Kim: That's nice.

Kathy: Mhmmm.

Kim: What's something you did early on in your practice that you don't do any more, and why don't you?

Kathy: This might be controversial or an unpopular opinion.

Kim: Yeah, let's do that.

Kathy: Uh-huh. Casting a circle. I was told when I first started, you have to cast a circle, you have to protect yourself. Anytime you do anything witchy, you have to do this first. And personally, I don't believe that there are big baddies waiting in the wings to jump me if I do any sort of magical thing without casting a circle. I believe there's negative energies out there. I truly believe that the people can carry them, they can come in from other sources, but I don't believe in, let's say, a demon waiting in the corner of my room for me to pull a tarot card without casting a circle and he's going to attach himself to me. I was told that, it's wild! So, um, you know, so...

Kim: So you don't have demonic stalkers.

Kathy: (laughs) I sure hope not. Because I've been letting them in this whole time. 

Kim: Let me just knock some wood. Just in case. I am also not a circle caster, but I also don't like to tempt fate.

Kathy:  I work from home part time but I have a little knick-knack that is a wooden turtle and anytime someone says, you know, like they say at the ER, oh, it's really quiet tonight. Don't say that. You know, so someone will say, wow, I haven't had this happen in a while and I'll knock on the wood or someone will say, Kathy, knock on the turtle. You know, across the room.

Kim: That's nice that it's spreading!

Kathy: Yeah, it's so funny. And I'll just raise it above the cubicle...

Kim: Do they know they're like, y'all are being so witchy right now, y'all don't even know.

Kathy: You know, I am not, I don't hide the fact that I'm witchy at work. I got a secret Santa gift that was pretty witchy. It was so cute. daily calendar thing of like intentions, rituals, manifestations and stuff. And I'm so excited to start using it on the first.

Kim: That's so nice.

Kathy: I know! And people were asking questions and they were intrigued and they didn't sound judgmental. So at least-

Kim: Yay you! Yay your work environment.

Kathy: Yeah. It's really great. But I also don't want to be like too... like you're being witchy. You know, there's a line. I try to dance around it. No, I just, I think that if it's, if it helps some people, that is fine. I'm not going to call anyone silly for doing it. I just, it's not something I subscribe to.

Kim: I agree. But also I... I do ward my property periodically So I kind, of maybe people would count that as a giant permanent circle But I mean, that's why I feel okay not doing it because anything I do in here So it's like the the land spirits that I say. Hey, help me watch out for this for us. And the circle or the perimeter that I cast, I feel like that could be considered a circle by somebody, but I keep it up permanently and I don't move it around.

Kathy: Fair. Yeah. And I think I do also, I put stuff on my doors like we talked about earlier, but to me that's more of, hey, if- oh, I was about to say a name. If someone comes around and they have a hella negative energy, well it wasn't a name but it was a title of someone related to me.

Kim: (laughs) Yeah.

Kathy:  But if that person comes around with a hella negative energy, this is gonna, I see it as like as they walk in it's like a puff of smoke behind them. Hopefully their negative energy stays outside and they can come in and not be so negative. And that is the kind of protection I do in my home as opposed to negative spirits or baddies or I don't even know what to call them, demons, stuff like that. I don't feel that-

Kim: Baddies makes sense.

Kathy: Baddies is a good one, yeah.

Kim: What is your favorite tool, does not have to be a physical object, in your practice, and how do you use it?

Kathy: I'll have to say tarot. I use it personally, I use it for others, I use it for work, I use it in so many ways, and I love to interpret the meanings of the cards. How do I want to say this? It's like, I like Tarot more than Oracle because Oracle cards, every deck is different. And I've got one Oracle deck, it's a beautiful deck, I think it's called The Sacred Feminine. And I've just never connected with it. I've tried to use it a handful of times, nothing ever makes sense. But when I pull the magician card in tarot, for instance, I know what that means to me. And it can mean other things to other people, but to me, the imagery of the wand and the hand and the hand pointing to the ground, it's a conduit and the picture of all the different suits. It's the tools that you need to create your magic and it makes sense and I can apply that to my life, whether that's directly with the magic of the cards or the spicy psychology, who knows, but it works for me and I love it.

Kim: If you could only recommend one source of info to a new witch, what would it be and why?

Kathy: Source of info or like resource?

Kim: Either one.

Kathy: I would say if it was like a resource, there's a book called The Witch's Path by Thorn Mooney. And I personally used that after I had been doing witchcraft for a while, but it helped me kind of re-solidify my beliefs and kind of sink into what I practice, how I practice, what I believe. And the way that the book is laid out is really great. It's got like writing exercises and exercises for your environment. And I wish I had had it as a beginner, but I love that I found it even at that point in my head, I guess.

Kim: It sounds like a good, useful thing.

Kathy: It's wonderful.

Kim: How do you pull yourself out of a magical slump?

Kathy: I want to say I don't, but like I do eventually. (laughs) Honestly, the book by Thorn Mooney, The Witch's Path, it did pull me out of one slump that I had had. I didn't really know where to go next and that really helped me pull out of that. But a lot of times I just kind of wait it out. There's a reason you're in a slump.

Kim: Me too.

Kathy: Yeah. To me, it's... like I've actually been in a slump since probably September, this past 4 months or so. I've only done like two tarot spreads in that time and I know that it's because it's a busy season at work. It's getting the kids energy out every day is so much harder because we can't go outside and play. It's just I got diagnosed with sleep apnea and so sleep has been difficult. I don't have the energy to put into these sorts of things and I'm just waiting it out. I know that life is full of cycles and my cycle will come back. That sounds like my period. My cycle will come back.

Kim: But it does.

Kathy: It does!

Kim: It's nature, it's a natural thing.

Kathy: Oh and boy, do I have seasonal affective disorder, let me tell you! Today, the sun is coming back to longer days. 

Kim: Yes, happy solstice!

Kathy: Yes, it's very cloudy here, very overcast, but I did sit out on my eastern facing porch and I watched the sky get lighter. I do that every 22nd of December. December is after the longest night, I watch the sunrise and welcome it back to longer days. And I'm so excited for longer days.

Kim: Me too. Yeah, it's actually raining today. So I don't see the sun. But because we never get rain because it's freaking Arizona, I'm still excited.

Kathy: Yeah.

Kim: What's something you wish was discussed more in the witch community?

Kathy: I wish, I don't know how to say this, like differing opinions. Like, it's okay if you want something to be aesthetically pleasing. That doesn't mean that you are an imposter in the witchy community. Just because you want something to look nice doesn't mean you're just doing it for the trendy, witchy, witch talk aesthetic. I made a besom a while ago just to hang above my door and I wanted it to be cute and I had an ex-friend at this point accused me of just doing it for the aesthetics because it's popular. I'm like, no, I want to do it for the representation that it holds but that doesn't mean I don't want something cute in my house. So I wish it was more okay to kind of toe the line between I'm doing it for aesthetics, but I'm also doing it for the meaning. They're not mutually exclusive.

Kim: Well, one of my friends, I talked to her for the show and something she pointed out was her altar is for her ancestors. So no, she's not putting just some ugly piece of crap up there because she wants it to look nice for her ancestors.

Kathy: Right? It's respectful!

Kim: Yeah!

Kathy: Yeah.

Kim: Think about the three biggest influences on your practice, whether it be a person or a book or an idea. Thank them for what they've done for your practice.

Kathy: I would first say thank you to my best friend, Cinnamon is her name. And she is the one that I told you about when she said, try this out. She spurred on that curiosity for me and she's the first one who told me about the science witch side of things. I always thought about the woo-woo, you know, the magic and everything but when she put it into that perspective I was like yeah that does make sense and I do identify with that. So she's the one who kind of started the journey that I'm on now and I couldn't thank her enough. She also, she didn't buy me my first tarot deck, but she Venmo'd me after I bought a tarot deck. So that it was someone gifting you a tarot deck. It was really funny. So she got, she introduced me to that as well. She sent me a book that was a really good resource in the beginning as well. It was, I don't remember what it was called. Oh, Tarot Plain and Simple was the book. She sent me that in the mail. And she's a big inspiration. You said three, right? Three things. I would also say, honestly, the Witch Bitch Amateur Hour.

Kim: Yay!

Kathy: Yeah. My other friend, Eden, introduced me to them. Yeah, and that's how I found you too, through them. So they gave me permission to be casual about witchcraft. It's not so reverent and sacred. I mean, there are some parts of it that are reverent and sacred, but it can also be funny and fun and casual and that gave me the permission to do so in my practice. So I love them. I would love to meet them or even talk to them someday.

Kim: Come to Anahata's Purpose!

Kathy: I know, but from Nebraska to there, so girl, I got kids, I got twins, they are expensive. I dream of doing that someday or I have this long rant with my husband about what if we make a Midwest Anahata's Purpose? What if we make-

Kim: I'm trying to get Rachel to come here to do that, to see like maybe, maybe move it across the country a little bit, because it's a long way to Philadelphia.

Kathy: I think about like California witches, like those poor people have to go all the way across the country-

Kim: Somebody came from Alaska the first year I went.

Kathy: That's insane! That's amazing. Now we just got to get someone from Hawaii. That's crazy.

Kim: From another country, from another continent, because we finally had Canadian beans come, but someone from another country come, another continent.

Kathy: Yeah. Yeah.

Kim: Sorry for interrupting you. I also love Charlye and Macy. (laughs)

Kathy: Yes. Let me tell you, um, I did back when Coven karaoke was a thing. I posted one and Macy responded. I was like, oh my god. Oh my god They're like celebrities!

Kim: It makes me feel so fancy when they talk to you!

Kathy: (laughs)They're like celebrities to me! It's been it's great. So that, yeah, like it. I like I said the person who told me oh, you're just doing it for the aesthetic. They were one of those, it has to be very reverent and sacred people. And I got to change-

Kim: What, do they just use trash for theirs then?

Kathy: No, they, I don't want to speak too much on it, just in case they listen.

Kim: Yeah, you don't have to. You don't have to. I'm being facetious, but I mean, come on.

Kathy: It was very gatekeepy, yeah. So oh, I need a third. So, oh, I need a third. I guess Charlye and Macy could count as two, but gosh, you said something when you said the question. You said it could be people, it could be, and I had an idea, now I can't remember what it was. I mean, I guess I could say my friend Eden, which I had already thought about earlier, she taught me that along the same lines, not every witch is gatekeepy. Not every witch is gonna tell you what to do. Some of them open you with, or- open you. (laughs) Some of them welcome you with open arms, and they're not gonna judge you, they're gonna listen intently, and they're gonna ask questions, but they're not gonna judge you for what you believe in. That made me feel better to share my practice and be more out of the broom closet when she and I started having those conversations. She was actually a friend of my husband's first, and now she's better friends with me.

Kim: That's cool.

Kathy: Mhmmm, I love her to death.

Kim: What advice do you have for new witches?

Kathy: I would say, and I think I've heard people say this in other episodes, stay off of witch talk, stay off of Instagram, try to, don't let the algorithm on TikTok send you down that rabbit hole because you will feel inadequate. You will. It's just the, you know, people put so much work into these posts, hours of work goes into setting up.

Kim: They hire other people, they pay other people to do it.

Kathy: They do! I know. And if you're going to base your practice off of what you see on social media, you're never going to get anywhere. So if you can avoid that, really settle into what you believe, what your practice is, what you're going to do or not do, how pretty you're going to make it. And just make sure you're solid in that before getting into that other stuff. You can admire other people's work. You can say, that's really cool. Don't let it define your practice.

Kim: That's so good!

Kathy: Thank you, that just came to me.

Kim: Who do you think I should have on the show?

Kathy: I have ideas, but I'm trying to think of who would be willing. I know a lot of people in the broom closet. Or partially in the broom closet.

Kim: Let me point out to people, I'm okay with you using a fake name. And I don't have to use a picture.

Kathy: That's very true.

Kim: For everyone-  If you want to be on the show and talk about your practice, you can. You don't have to tell people your real name. I'm not outing anybody intentionally.

Kathy: Yeah, that's good.

Kim: And I'm okay using – there have been people who don't want their pictures, so I've used a picture of something they sent me, or I made up a picture of something that I like. So if anybody's scared, you can still reach out and talk to me. We can figure something out.

Kathy: That's good. That's really nice. I like that I like that, because some people, you know, and I, before I did this podcast, I did ask Cinnamon and Eden if I could use their names and I'm very respectful of that, but I would say Eden, because I think she'd be willing. She is so charismatic and I love her beliefs as well. I think she'd be a really great fit for the show. She's one of my favorite witches, I'll say.

Kim: Was there anything else that I didn't ask you that you wanted to talk about or did you have any questions for me?

Kathy: Not really. I think- I love your questions. I think they're very broad but also very thorough. I did want to say I was gonna say this earlier. It's so interesting after listening to your episodes seeing you as we talk is so fun, because I get to see like your, your body language in hand movements. I've been listening to you for a while now and I jumped back between like old episodes when it was Who, Witch, Where and then now more recent episodes and it's just so funny because your voice sounds the same but I'm like looking at your face now. I love it. 

Kim: I actually like this because- and for everybody listening I don't normally have video, like we're not recording where it's just so I can see body language and things. But the computer that I have is so old that it has a VGA monitor, which is old.

Kathy: Yeah.

Kim: Because I got it for like $80 used. 

Kathy: Hey, might as well.

Kim: And it's the podcast computer, but it won't take my webcam. So there's a webcam up here just useless. It's the podcast computer, but it won't take my webcam. So there's a webcam up here just useless. useless, but the new laptop that I bought for the job that they immediately laid me off for after I bought it. Thanks, [censor beep]! So, I have this new computer with a camera. Anyway, I think I might start doing this because I actually do, I also like to see body language.

Kathy: And I talk with my hands. Oh, my God. 

Kim: Me, too. 

Kathy: I'm all over the place.

Kim: Now at the end, I have two things that I ask of my listeners. I don't ask them of the listeners, actually, I ask them of the guests.

Kathy: I was like, wait. I mean, I am a listener.

Kim: And I'm thankful for that! Thank you very much! Thing number one, can you please recommend something to the listeners?

Kathy: And it's not, it doesn't have to be witchy?

Kim: Anything at all. Doesn't have to be anything, it can be whatever you want.

Kathy: This is going to sound so weird, but there's this lip balm that I swear by. It's Neosporin, like nighttime lip balm, something like that. It comes in a little tub instead of like a tube that you put on your lips and you like dip your finger in it and put it on. It gets so dry here in the winter. Like my hands crack. It's horrible. Usually my lips crack too, but I put this on my lips and it, like they've done research into EOS where it actually dries out your lips over time. Nice. Yeah. So you buy more. But this Neosporin stuff, not only do I use it on my lips, my son, he's three, he sucks his thumb a lot and it gets all dry. And I put it on his thumb and it smooths it right up. And I've gotten so many friends onto this train because it's very nice on your lips. It's not sticky, it's not slimy, it's comfortable, is weird to say about lip balm, comfortable. What-

Kim: If it doesn't feel creepy, that's important.

Kathy: Yes, especially for people with sensory issues like me.

Kim: Yes, hello. And for everyone who heard my husband texting me, you're welcome. I will probably not remember to go back and edit my track of that. You're welcome, everyone. Thing number two is: please tell me a story.

Kathy: I thought about this for a minute, and I don't know if this story is boring to other people, but I think it's hilarious. So it's the story of how my husband proposed. So I know it's so exciting. Um, this was... wow. Wait, I don't know. Years ago. I can't do math.

Kim: Me neither!

Kathy: I was like, wait, how long ago was that? But it doesn't matter. So we were talking about getting married. I had shown him some ring ideas, picked some out, but I still wanted it gto be a surprise. We were looking at different places to get it, but he was a college student. I was working at a call center. We didn't have a ton of money, which is fine. I don't need a gigantic ring. So but we were looking at JCPenney's jewelry section and my friend texted me she knew that I wanted a new pair of boots and she said hey JCPenney is doing an online sale if you order it online you get 60% off whatever you buy and I was like oh my god but like today that day was the last day so I was like texted him during work. I sent him pics, screenshots of four different rings, ring sets. I said, pick one and order it today, but don't tell me which one it is. And then after this moment, don't tell me anything. I don't want to know when it arrives. I don't want to know when you're going to propose. And that was on a Monday. And then I believe it was that Wednesday or Thursday, we were going out to dinner with some of my coworkers for a birthday or something. And we were going to drive separately, because the plan was to go to dinner and then go to karaoke. But he had to get up early in the morning, so he was going to go to dinner and drive home. So we exit the building, the house, the building. We exit the house, and there's a little package on the front step. And I, weirdly enough, had forgotten what he had ordered. And it might have been a week later, I don't know. And I looked down and I was like, oh cool, a package. And he practically pushes me out of the way, snatches it up, and says, I'll be right back. And he runs inside. I was like, what the hell was that? And I said, what is it? Before he goes inside, I see he goes, a book, because he's a big book reader. He reads and he orders books all the time. I was like, that looked a little small to be a book, but okay. He takes like eight minutes inside. And I'm like, if it was a book, he would have just stepped inside, put it on the bookshelf and come back out. I was like, oh, that's what that is. I'm like, it clicked. And I knew he was hiding it somewhere or probably opening it and making sure it was good and then hiding. And I'm waiting. We're going to be late. He comes back out. I was like, okay, are you good? He's like, yeah. We walked down. Our cars are parked next to each other. And he looks at me over the top of his car as he's about to get in, winks and gets in the car. Except he's really terrible at winking and it uses his whole entire face to wink. And I'm like, oh my gosh, you're not supposed to tell me about this. You're supposed to keep it secret. So I get in the car, we go to dinner, it's fine. And then we met doing community theater. And it's really important to us. And about a week later, there was a show that neither of us were in, we wanted to go support our friends. And three or four days beforehand, I'm talking to our roommate who is his best friend, and I said, I think Nate's gonna propose when we're at the theater. And I, at this point, I know that he knew that was the plan, but he, I was like, I gotta go get my nails done, I gotta make sure I'm wearing the right thing because I know there's gonna be pictures. And we're like literally just eating Burger King and he goes, nah, you know Nate, he's gonna wanna like plan it out and make it perfect. It's only been a week and a half since you told him to buy the ring. He's not gonna do it just out of the blue right away, right? And I'm like, you know what? Yeah, you're probably right. He convinced me three days beforehand that he wasn't gonna do it. So I didn't get my nails done. I did wear like a cute dress that day, but I was so mad at him, but like, it's good because it remained a surprise. And then the next day, my mom asked if I wanted to get my nails done because she wanted to get hers done for an event she was having in a week or so. She said, do you want to come with me? I said, nah, it's okay. I'm busy this day, whatever. And she, I later found out that he had messaged her, called her or something. And he didn't ask permission, but he was asking for her blessing and she was trying to get me to get my nails done. So there's so many points leading up to this. So we get to the day of the show. We had already bought tickets. We were on our way and it's out in the middle of nowhere Iowa, for anyone listening it's in Glenwood, Iowa and we're driving there and you have to cross a pretty major train track to get there and we pull up and the arms go down and a train is coming and we're gonna be late to the show. I text someone who's in the show and I say hold the curtain we'll be there in like five minutes. And they do that sometimes if there's still people missing, but the train is going like three miles an hour.

Kim: I hate that.

Kathy: And we're sitting there and then the train passes, but the arms don't go up. And we're waiting and we're like, okay, maybe another train is coming and there's a truck in front of us and it just drives around the arms and it goes. And my husband says, okay, I'm just going to drive around. And I grab his arm. I'm like, no, that's the one thing you're not supposed to do. Are you trying to kill us? Exactly. I was terrified because you see all those videos of people just, no. And I said, why don't we just come back to the show tomorrow? I'm sure they'll just give us our tickets for tomorrow. And he goes, NO! Just like really sudden and very loud. He goes, we can just go. It's fine. I was like, wow. OK. And he does not raise his voice ever. Ever. And he goes, NO! And so there was a car behind us who drove around us. This dude, I don't know who he was. He lifts the arm off of the mechanism and puts it on the ground. I'm not kidding. I was like, that's so illegal and so unsafe. And he just drives through. So we go up to the tracks, we look left, we look right, and there's no train in sight. So we just go, we go across the tracks and we make it, we get in our seats, we watch the show. And afterwards, this, oh god, there's so train of people who knew except for me. My mom came to the show and everything because she wanted to be there. And we went out to the lobby. We're talking with the actors after hand. And the director of the show, who was also the director of the show that he and I fell in love during the show, so she's been there since the beginning. She's like, hey, Kathy, we're doing Into the Woods next summer. And I, come here, come to the stage. I want to show you my idea for the set. So she knew and she got me onto the stage so that he could propose on the stage that we fell in love on. And I'm just standing there, she's gesturing like, oh, over here, we're going to have this and we're going to have this. And I'm completely oblivious. And then I remember her voice like fading out, but I'm just like looking at the current set because it was really intricate, and then he taps me on the shoulder, I turn around he gets down on one knee, says this little speech. But this whole trajectory like so many people knew and tried to steer me the right or wrong way, because he was so bad at keeping secrets too. Oh, it was so funny.

Kim: I am also bad at it, so I relate. But I also love knowing them.

Kathy: Yeah! Oh yeah. I have a secret about a friend right now who I have a lot of mutual friends with. I'm not going to say it, but, oh, it's hard to keep.

Kim: Man, you want to!

Kathy:  But I love that they trusted me with the secret. Yeah. And so I have to hold on to it. 

Kim: I have one of those that I learned today. God, it's killing me!

Kathy: Oh no! Well, and usually if someone tells me a secret, I tell my husband-

Kim: Oh, that's a given.

Kathy: ...because usually it's like a coworker or a friend he doesn't know, but this is a friend that he does know and he's friends with.

Kim: Oh no. 

Kathy: And he, yeah, I can't tell him. So I told my cat.

Kim: That's good.

Kathy: Yeah.

Kim: If I have secrets, and he doesn't listen to the show, I don't think. So I feel okay saying this. But if I have secrets from Ken, you know, sometimes you can go in to your whatever face group, facebook group you're in. But if it's one of my like, members only groups, because I tend to get put in jail on Facebook a lot because I want to punch people in the face and I express that. I made made him, what are they called, whatever it is, a mod. So he's in all the groups. I have noplace besides Marco Polo.

Kathy: See, I use Marco Polo too, and I used it before I heard Macy and Charlye talk about it with you. I use it with family, and I've gotten so many people onto it, but I hate that you have to pay for it now.

Kim: Yeah.

Kathy: But yes, I love Marco Polo.

Kim: Well thanks so much for being on the show. It was really fun talking to you and to see you, which is not normal for me.

Kathy: Thank you.

Kim: And everybody go follow her on Instagram at...

Kathy: Sword and Moon Tarot.

Kim: And I'll see you over there! Okay bye!

Kathy: Bye.

Kim: Kathy.

Kathy: Yes.

Kim: Welcome to Hive House!

Kathy: Yes! (both laugh)

Kim: Now I'm gonna... this was not on the list.

Kathy: Oh!

Kim: I have these cards it's called Let's Get Deep and I'm gonna pull one to ask you.

Kathy:  Oooo! I love stuff like this I don't do small talk I ask people what's your childhood trauma? 

Kim: Exactly. (fades out)

Kathy: (fades in) I have another friend, we go to like TJ Maxx, and we make up backstories to them.

Kim: Yes!

Kathy: Yes. Like what are their lives like outside of the store? And that's a lot. So like I would do that with Lucifer Morningstar because I feel like he'd have really good back stories. (fades out)

To hear more of the members only episode head over to crepuscularconjuration.com. The monthly magic tier will give you access to the monthly magic Marco Polo group, the private Facebook group, and access to the written monthly spells. There's also crepuscular conjurations giving you bonus podcast episodes, coloring pages, guided meditation, spell crafting videos, printable downloads, and more. The free Witchy Wonderment level will give you a little sample of everything I just mentioned. You can also visit my shop, Clever Kim's Curios, to get spell boxes one at a time or by monthly subscription, intentional handcrafted jewelry that I make especially for witches, and handmade altar tools. You can even listen to the full Your Average Witch podcast library including show notes. Check it out at crepuscularconjuration.com. Thanks for listening to this episode of Your Average Witch. You can find us all around the internet on Instagram at YourAverageWitchPodcast, Facebook at Facebook.com slash groups slash Hive House, at YourAverageWitch.com and at your favorite podcast service. If you'd like to recommend someone for the podcast, like to be on it yourself, or if you'd like to advertise on the podcast, send an email to YourAverageWitchPodcast at gmail.com. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next Tuesday. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next Tuesday.