Luke Bonecutter. Tarot, Ego, and Witchcraft

Welcome to season 4, and happy new year! In this episode I am talking to Luke Bonecutter. Luke talks about how your surroundings can shape your practice, understanding impact versus intention, and knowing the difference between ego and messages from divinity.

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Transcript

Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where every Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft. Your Average Witch is sponsored by Clever Kim's Curios. Happy New Year and welcome to Season 4. I did not expect this to come as soon as it did. Time has passed way faster than I thought it would. Thanks for the past three years and I'm excited to get started on this one. In this episode, I'm talking to Luke Bonecutter. Luke talks about how your surroundings can shape your practice, understanding impact versus intention, and knowing the difference between ego and messages from divinity. Now let's get to the stories.

Kim: Hello, Luke. Welcome to the show.

Luke: Hi, Kim. I've been on the show before.

Kim: On my show?

Luke: Yeah, you interviewed me.

Kim: Oh, yeah! I don't have any memory of anything ever in the past, unless it was 10 minutes ago.

Luke: I love that. I love that because yeah, that's like, that's how you know you're in the right flow, right? Like that's how it is for me with readings. Like I completely forget them in one year out the other. Like when I'm in my state, I'm just like, I'm not going to remember this or anything I said or any specific card, but it's hitting.

Kim: The world is always brand new for me because I don't remember what I did 15 minutes ago.

Luke: It's like goldfish brain.

Kim: Yes, very much. Can you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you?

Luke: I sure can. Yeah. Hi, I'm Luke Bonecutter. Yes, that's really my last name. My pronouns are he/they, I'm genderqueer. So I see myself as having both masculine and feminine aspects and existing somewhere in between. That's why I like the term genderqueer. I'm a diviner and spiritual counselor out of San Antonio, Texas, which is Tonkawa, Humanos, Kw'atwi-le-kan, and Lipan Apache land.

Kim: Bravo for that, by the way. Good pronunciation.

Luke: It's complicated.

Kim: Yeah.

Luke: No, yeah, I really love language and especially like the indigenous recognition of the original stewards of the land is so important to me. So I spend time doing that and I'm glad it was one of your questions. So yeah, I'm in San Antonio, Texas in colonizer speak, and I am a practiced card reader of about 13 years now. I I offer astrology readings, mentoring sessions, classes and workshops online, containers for longer periods of learning and building community. You can find me @mysticbardlux on Instagram and my linktree is linkedr.ee/mysticbardlux.

Kim: Nice. And you will find that in the show notes below, by the way. My first question is, what does it mean to you when you call yourself a witch?

Luke: First of all, I love that you ask this, because having a definition is... A lot of people have struggles with that. Like, how do you define yourself as a witch? And like, that's the whole point of this podcast is like, this is average witches. But like, what do they mean by witch? What does that mean to them? Everybody's path is unique and for me being a witch means being a steward of nature and extending compassion to all living things on the planet. So for me it's about seeing the entire world as my community and fostering healthy relationships with the elements and aspects of nature and other beings that are here.

Kim: Are you an animist?

Luke: That's a really good question. I would like to lean towards yes, because I do believe that, honestly, like spiritual energy exists in everything, everywhere. So yeah, everything does have a spirit.

Kim: That is not one of the questions, but I was talking about it to somebody today, and it came up. It's a person I was talking to about the cactus.

Luke: Yeah, oh, that's so interesting. I love that. One of my favorite decks, the Halloween Oracle by Stacy DeMarco, calls the witch card the earthly weaver of the worlds. I like that a lot. I like that definition, too. I was like, ooh, that's impeccable. Like, that's a very specific, succinct way of putting what a witch is. 

Kim: Also, it sounds just really cool. 

Luke: It sounds epic, right? Like, really good. 

Kim: Do you have any family history with witchcraft or the metaphysical or any weird witchy stories from childhood where even if your family does not recognize it at all, it still happened? 

Luke: Um, also a fun question and I have kind of like a long answer. Hell yeah. But basically, basically like my mom was always witchy-leaning, has big kitchen witch vibes. Like she loves cooking, she loves baking, but she's never really been out of the broom closet, if you know what I mean. She's into angels, she's into fairies, gardening, aromatherapy, Stevie Nicks, cats, birds, natural medicine, that kind of thing. So like, always like has a witch Bible and even like has like these quote unquote psychic gifts that she can find parking spots or knows something's going to happen like precognition, right? Her father, my grandpa was a pharmacist and a gardener, and he had a farm in Ohio. And when I was growing up from like, ages zero through six, he imparted a deep love for plants and animals, but interestingly I don't have any specific connections with my family and the craft as far as I know, other than like, you know, watching Hocus Pocus, Practical Magic, Sabrina, fantasy books, that kind of thing. I always loved magic and had a fascination with it and liked using my imagination and being outside. And I've been playing D&D for over like 20 years. So I'm like an avid gamer. And I do have like a lot of what I call mental energy. Um, but growing up, our household was inclusive when it came to spirituality, but we were never really like religious. We did regularly like watch meteor showers or go to the beach. But other than learning about different holidays, like Ramadan, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Diwali, Chinese New Year, and Dia de los Muertos. We didn't really, I don't know, observe any of that stuff with like tradition in mind. You know what I mean? So I don't have any specific stories other than like when I was in South Carolina, we did live in a haunted like land. There wasn't like scary activity necessarily, but it was a thing that we had this, what we called a bonus room, or in the South they call it a FROG, a finished room above the garage. And it was like a whole guest suite. So my brother and I, my brothers and I would spend a lot of time in there over the summer and just like be up all night playing games. But it had a pump organ in that room. And we would experience, we would hear it when we were in other places of the house. Like we could hear the pump organ, but what's weird about the pump organ is like you have to pump it to play, but we would hear it playing. So obviously, like, yeah, that takes a few steps. 

Kim: Yeah, that's wild.

Luke: Yeah, that's not just like a thing. You know, the usual ghost stories, like vibrating chandeliers, reflections that aren't there. So, so, so clearly, like, experience with the paranormal, but never in a place of like, I'm gonna die, I'm scared, here's my adrenaline reaction, you know? 

Kim: I love that when I asked you about witchy things in your family, you said no, but then you brought up going to the beach and watching meteor showers... (Luke laughs) as witchy. I love it.

Luke:  Thank you, yeah, I wasn't sure what to put for that, because otherwise I would have no answer. (Laughs) My family didn't celebrate the wheel of the year or even learn about witchcraft as I was growing up. I never knew about like what Samhain was or anything. Like, I always, of course, loved Halloween. We loved Halloween. And that's like as close to witchy celebration that we really intersected and got to.

Kim: Now I'm thinking about my, yeah, me too.

Luke: Right? Like...

Kim: But my granddad was a minister, so we were pretty Christian-oriented.

Luke: Yeah, I think my experience from other people is different because we weren't even really Christian-oriented. We were just kind of like...

Kim: Good for you. (laughs)

Luke: You know, like obviously my grandparents and extended family are, but my immediate family were all very different spiritual beliefs and paths, for sure.

Can you introduce us to your practice? Do you have any daily, or if not daily, consistent rituals that you'll share?  It doesn't have to be ritual, just like something that you do regularly.

Luke: No, I like that you use the word ritual because I think that's an important, you know, magical clarifier, like to call it a ritual. I thought about this question long and hard and I was like, do I do anything consistently? Oh my god, am I even a witch? Like, what is this? Why can't I answer the question? But then I realized like, oh, I'm a diviner. Like, it feels like a cop-out answer, but obviously the most consistent thing for me has been divination, specifically reading the Tarot. And it has been since I started reading Tarot.  like I'll do at least a few readings for myself in a year, I'll say. I always do a birthday divination. Sometimes other things come up, you know, so at least like a handful of readings for myself. So that's a pretty regular consistent ritual. I don't always do new moon stuff. I don't always do full moon stuff. I don't always do eclipse stuff. I don't always do all the other Imbolg and all the other holidays and Sabbats that we have. So basically coming out of high school and going into college was a very troubling time for me. It was a very hard transition because I wanted freedom and autonomy, but I was pretty depressed with a capital D and directionless. I was undecided in academia. I didn't know what I was going to study, but I really enjoyed learning about spirituality and symbology more than anything else. Like, I was studying business, well, like I said, undecided for the first, like, few years in college. But right after high school, while Borders was going out of business, I introduced myself to the Tarot. I bought the Russian Saint Petersburg Tarot for myself. And I started reading for myself. And every time I sat down to read those cards, I would feel just transported, seen, validated, supported, and challenged like all at once. And after a few years of personal study, I began offering the service to friends and family. I got good enough at it and had amazing mentors, so I moved pretty naturally into professional reading. So that's been my ritual, has been divination, be it through Tarot or Oracle or runes, I just like peering between the veil, you know.

Kim: That's interesting because I generally don't do divination.

Luke: It's not something that I feel like is for everyone and many people have to learn, I think, their preferred form. But I think everybody is capable of it because it's really just like observation. It's just perception.

Kim: It's so neat! I am... well, there's some prodding happening from my friend. Same friend with the cactus this morning.

Luke: Hey, we need to name her.

Kim: Her name's Andrea.

Luke: Andrea, great!

Kim: But she's prodding, not just me, but the whole group that we regularly interact with, to do it more. So I have been doing it more, but I don't like, I have that gifted child thing where if I'm not immediately good at it, I'm like, fuck this, I don't want to do it. So... (Luke laughs) there that is.

Luke: You know, admittedly, admittedly for me, I had that for a while too. Um, when I first started out, I was like, wow, I'm bad at this. Like I couldn't, I couldn't understand.

Kim: How couldn't that be? (laughs)

Luke: Yeah, right?  I'm good at things, but I'm bad at this? I don't think so.

Kim: This must obviously not be something that it should be done by anyone.

Luke: I think this is a conspiracy from the universe, actually. (both laugh) So yeah, like, I understand that because for a long time, I was very like, I want to be good at something. But I also understand with like all my Capricorn energy, that that takes time and discipline. And there's nothing that people hate hearing more than time and discipline. Maybe more maybe responsibility. 

Kim: Gross! (laughs) 

Luke:  Yeah, maybe responsibility they hate more than that.

Kim: Oh, I really don't like it.

Luke: But I have sort of shifted my understanding of discipline to just be like a form of self-patience. Just be patient with yourself, right? Because if you're, if you're patient, then you're more willing to be consistent, even if it's not the consistency that you feel like is robotic or enough, quote unquote. It can it can help a lot to just be patient.

Kim: Holy shit, you should publish that.

Luke: (laughs) Saturnian wisdom, I tell ya.

Kim: Lord. How would you say witchcraft has changed your life?

Luke: Hmm. I think I'd probably be a lot like I was in high school. I'd be very bitter and angry and confused. And I was kind of like agnostic, spiritually, and kind of an intellectual elitist. So I think that without this expression of faith where I'm able to, you know, find my way on my own terms, I would be a very different person now. I would have fewer coping mechanisms. I would have fewer ways of understanding myself and others. While I am like musically creative, I think I'd still be like that. I think I'd still be really like jaded. That's a good word. Cynical, that's also a good word.

Kim: ...Huh. That makes sense.

Luke: Right? Like there's something about witchcraft for me that that fills in the gaps of like of the imagination. Like I can I can hold to specific tenets and treat beliefs more like experiments and and hold on to them as like hope, you know, like I hope that this is something that is, I'm optimistic about it. And that sort of is like the beginning step of magic, right? Like that's like visualizing and feeling it and letting it actually come into existence.

Kim: That's cool.

Luke: Yeah, thanks. I thought a lot about that question too. (both laugh)

Kim: What would you say is the biggest motivator in your practice and has it changed from when you first started out?

Luke: Oh, totally. When you first start out, you're trying to wrap your head around the mystery of existence. Like you want to know everything and you want to know it in five minutes. You want to know who your soulmate is. You want to know when you meet them. You want to know how you die, when you die. And you have $10 and some stuff.

Kim: I want more of that. (both laugh) I want more dollars.

Luke: Right, yeah. So I think, you know, in a lot of ways, motivators, when you're beginning, have to do with, like, just diving into the mystery in general, but also, like, specific things, like manifesting money or, you know, recognizing abundance or getting a new job or, you know, I mean.

Kim: Cord cutting. Everybody's into cord cutting. Everybody knows the term cord cutting now. So that's what everybody wants.

Luke: That's what the kids are calling it now, great. Good to know. (both laugh)

Kim: Oh lord.

Luke: So I think, I think existence and like understanding is a really important motivator, especially first off. But I think eventually I, you swim in the mystery long enough to where you realize like, you're not going to get to the bottom of this ocean. You're just not. And for me, then I realized, hey, there are other people like floating around here and swimming and navigating the space. And so eventually, I think connection became my motivator, because you can't really, you know, fully grasp mystery. That's kind of the whole point. Like, that's the divine's understanding, not ours. So, but because I crave understanding, and, you know, my inner child longs for acceptance and validation. I think witchcraft gives me a stage to to practice compassion and empathy and share that with others.

Kim: What would you say is your biggest struggle with your practice?

Luke: I mean, okay, so the big, big, big one that you even bring up is doubt, right? Like self-doubt.

Kim: Do you mean imposter syndrome?

Luke: Well, that's a different question, Kim.

Kim: But I asked this one first, so we could just include it if we wanted to. (both laugh)

Luke: No, I love it, I love it. So this is so... for me, it was about doubt for a really long time because, you know, when you're first starting off, it's like, is any of this real? What is this? What is this going to do for me, realistically speaking? Like, what if this doesn't work the way that I want it to? Those kinds of questions lead to doubt, right? And you eventually cope with doubt in your way. I will not give away my answer for that just yet, but you cope with doubt in your own way. And then eventually you realize like, for me, I'm a support class because I'm queer. I play support. It's part of our culture. And I can't really actually heal other people using magic. That was a recent kind of like in the past six, seven years or so. It's disappointing to realize that, because you're just trying to help others, but you can't make them see what they need or fix their problems for them. You have to-

Kim: That's like Al-Anon stuff right there.

Luke: Right? I don't know what that means though. What do you mean? What is Al-Anon, what is that?

Kim: Al-Anon is the, it's an organization similar to AA or NA or any of the anonymous groups where you have to acknowledge that you don't have control over anything anyone else does other than yourself.

Luke: Exactly, yeah. I think you have, I think, you know, you have to invite other people to look at their own reflection. And you might be able to facilitate emotional, spiritual, or physical healing, but they do the actual work in their own body in their own time. And that's like, it's not like video games where if you're playing a healer you can literally close wounds, you know?

Kim: (whispers) Damn. That hurts my feelings. I don't want to be told that I can't do something. How dare you? Don't tell me no.

Luke: But the thing is, there's still hope there, Kim, because we can do healing magic for other people. They just have to be willing to receive it. And we have to be patient enough to let them receive it on their own terms in their own time.

Kim: Patience? I have an Aries moon, my friend. (both laugh)

Luke: That explains so much. I think you said that during our other interview, too. I was like yes, yes you do. (both laugh)

Kim: Well, let's talk about impostor syndrome. Do you feel like you have a way to beat that?

Luke: I am super grateful to say that I do not know who imposter syndrome is. I can't say I know her, but I do know a lot of doubt. I do understand doubt. And I think it's even after like a baker's dozen years of studying and learning about spirituality. I mean, let's say even longer, because really, this is just what I say since 18. Right. But maybe it's my inner teenage skeptic, but I've learned to be thankful for doubt because it coexists with belief. So I have learned that doubt is an egoic defense, which means we know spirit is guiding us when we have doubt. What I've been telling a lot of clients for the past like year is that doubt and faith feed the same well of spiritual transformation that eventually creates change in our lives. So if you don't have any doubt at all...

Kim: Okay that's another statement that you need to publish and copyright.

Luke: I'm going to bold those statements. (laughs)

Kim: Yeah!

Luke: So like if you don't have any doubt, that's a sign that you're being led by your ego and not the divine.

Kim: Oh shit!

Luke: Right?

Kim: I think you just made some peoples' butts hurt with that statement. I can feel it now.

Luke: Yeah, I'm not for everybody. (laughs) I suppose it's that. But like does that make sense to you?

Kim: Yes! It absolutely does.

Luke:  As someone who also experiences doubt, like for me, like that's just been my experience and my understanding of it is like, well, I'm not getting rid of it because my brain's going to do it, right? But if I know my brain is doing it and I still follow what my gut is telling me, what I know this, you know, divine urge is my, my, my quote unquote purpose, my authenticity. There's so many ways to word it. But like, if I'm doing that, then I know that if I have doubt, that's because it's the ego trying to protect me trying to say, well, that's not coming from me.

Kim: Dang. Do you have any "oh shit" moments that, where you're like, "Oh shit, I actually did something"?

Luke: Oh, yes. Yes, and I will say, sometimes magic does not work the way that you intend it, no matter how many like plans and correspondences you try to include. So here's my example. Knowing a toxic person and being, well let's say being in a relationship that is harmful for you and trying to not necessarily cut ties just yet, but I'm... I dabble in gray witchcraft I will say. I don't mind an occasional binding and I don't mind an occasional hex, there's room for us as earthly weavers of the world, as witches, I think for us to tip the scales because magic should be used for that, right? Especially for people who deserve something, some kind of comeuppance, some kind of...

Kim: Not rainbows and glitter.

Luke: Exactly. We sometimes need to be the agents of justice and I am absolutely okay with doing that on occasion. Right. And so this is one of those occasions. And I our plan was to take this person, this harmful person for our environment, for our people, this real bad apple. Right? And we wanted to eject them. We wanted to take them and put them somewhere that they had been talking about going. We were- Okay, so specifically, we wanted to make them go to Chicago. And we were like, ooh, great. We'll write the like the little map. We looked up what it looks like to drive from our city to there because that's the way that they would have taken. And we use the time, like 17 hours and 17 minutes. We use the shape of the road map. We use some personal items of theirs and some other spiritual significant items. And we did like a little jar spell, right? And again, our objective was to get this person to just go to Chicago and leave us alone and stay out of our circle. Based on the ingredients that we used, I think the spell did not backfire, but we were very tired after a few days. And then I think maybe the next week or two, something happened, and he was caught drunk driving and crashed his truck and spent about 17 hours in prison.

Kim: (gasps and laughs) So you didn't yeet him to Chicago, you yeeted him to jail?! (laughs)

Luke: That's exactly what happened. So it was like an oh shit, our spell worked, but not at all the way we had intended.

Kim: (laughing) That's wild.

Luke: Isn't that a cool story? I didn't even write that down. That came up because you brought it up.

Kim: Well because when you were talking about, I don't remember what it was, but as you were talking about that, I wrote down, what's your oh shit moment because I thought of it when you said it. So...

Luke: That's a good question!

Kim: ...that's what this podcast is like. (both laughed)

Luke: That's my biggest oh shit moment. Like, oh shit, like, oh shit, it worked. But also, oh shit, it did that, what, something else.

Kim: What brings you the most joy in your practice?

Luke: Okay, so obviously, my first inclination is to say like, when a spell works, because even though it didn't do what we wanted it to do, that spell definitely did work, right? But that wasn't the joy that I think I want to highlight. The joy that I really, really get the most out of is seeing others grow and learn and make their own connections and associations. I'm just a teacher at heart. I really love it when my clients, my friends, or family members come to conclusions based example. And it brings me a lot of bliss to learn. I like learning as well. So whenever I hold classes or workshops, I like to keep it discussion-based so that relevant experiences are shared and new layers are added to everyone's understanding. I love learning and I love learning in groups.

Kim: That's nice. That sounds nice.

Luke: Especially when it comes to things like divination, like we think it's highly personal and yeah, our relationship with it is. However, other people's experiences can add to our own understanding. If that resonates, if that hits, if that person's anecdote reminds you of a certain card's meaning, then that's what's going to come to mind. And I love those kinds of connections. I live for it. I'm like, yes, build more synaptic connections. Let's do it together.

Kim: Oh, I love science when it intersects with us!

Luke: Yes.

Kim: Would you say you have any fear about witchcraft?

Luke: That's a funny way to word it. My biggest fear in witchcraft is-

Kim: I don't know how to ask it. The way I have it written doesn't make sense to me.

Luke: Yeah, no, I see what you mean. I see what you mean. I kind of interpreted as like... being a witch, what is my fear, right?

Kim: Yeah.

Luke: Like I don't I don't think I fear even everyone eventually turning against me and being like no witchcraft is wrong, you're wrong, everything you believe is wrong. I just I don't... that's not, I think that's a very irrational fear soI don't count that. My rational fear is not making a big enough difference in the world. Not leaving Mama Gaia in a better state than I came to her in. That's a pretty big fear for me. I don't want to make a mess while I'm here. I want to make it better.

Kim: That's a good one. Response, I mean. (laughs)

Luke: Thanks. I mean, yeah, it is a good fear, too. Like, right, it's a good motivator as far as fears are concerned.

Kim: Yeah. What is something that you used to do early on in your practice that you don't do anymore, and why don't you do it?

Luke: I have a good answer for this one. So when I was learning tarot, to read professionally, my teacher would have apprentice fairs where after each basically level of class she would host a party, a gathering, a soiree, to bring those readers some experience and read for strangers. So she would invite other people that she knew who wanted readings or other classes that she had taught before and just kind of like, you know, mix and mingle to allow these apprentice readers a chance to read. And while I was doing that, part of my practice was lighting a candle for each sitter who was getting a reading from me. And I did it because I felt like it protected my energy, it protected their energy, it brought in spirit, and it added oomph to the experience. But it eventually got to a point where I'm like, I do not need to be burning a candle every single time someone comes to sit at my table. And I got a good enough grip on spiritual hygiene. And my the rest of my ritual keeps me safe without the need for a candle now. I think I do. 

Kim: Mine is similar. It's not specifically that, but yeah, I feel like I protect myself differently.

Luke: It becomes a lot easier when you realize what is not safe. What you know makes you feel safe versus when you're in an unsafe environment. You know what I mean?

Kim: Yeah. Huh. What is your favorite tool? It does not have to be a physical object, that you use inyour practice?

Luke: Well, that changes my, I'm just kidding. With it being not a physical object, I was like, well, like my brain.

Kim: Yeah, or thoughts.

Luke: Or thoughts, that's good. But I have kind of an easy answer. As a diviner, I'm going to say cards. They're my favorite.

Kim: That's fair.

Luke: I love them. But I do want to add, I love altarcraft. I love creating a specific space for specific readings or for, you know, for channeling a specific deity or for, you know, for... I just love creating altars. And every month through my Patreon, I get to create a themed altar and match whatever form of divination feels appropriate for my supporters. And I use things like different cloths with patterns and colors, crystals, shells, feathers, props, chalices, you know, the witchy shit. And I like-

Kim: Can I use that idea? Because that sounds really fun, and I love the term altercraft.

Luke: Please, by all means!

Kim: I love it so much!

Luke: Absolutely, I hope it inspires more than just you, Kim. Because like, I think if you don't have the space for it, sometimes divination can be really hard. But if you really like creating a space and you have a shit ton of crystals, like every average witch, then you can bring it all together and say, okay, this space is going to be to bring energy for this reason. When you have the space, I feel like you do the work. You're bringing all the elements together and it makes readings more accurate and powerful.

Kim: I... here's why it excites me. I don't do that for myself, but I think it would be fun to do it for other people.

Luke: Yeah, I think that's my secret is that I'm really bad at doing it for myself. If I have the motivator of other people who are paying me monthly, and it's like oh they'll enjoy it.

Kim: What else can I give them?

Luke: Exactly.

Kim: Here's my heart!

Luke: Yeah.

Kim: That's fun, thanks.

Luke: You're totally welcome, yeah.

Kim: If you could only recommend one source of information to a witch, what would it be?

Luke: So this one's tricky. Can I name like two?

Kim: I forbid it.

Luke: I knew you would.

Kim: Yes, yes. (both laugh)

Luke: Okay, so when I was first starting off, when I was a new witch, it was really hard, and it's still really hard, to find books about the umbrella spirituality of witchcraft that don't go into the specific ritual practices of Wiccan denominations or, you know, have outlined altar and spell ingredients. Like I didn't want any of that stuff. I just wanted something that told me the fundamental spiritual observances of witches, right? Witch being the broad term, not the specific terms of how religiously to practice. So the book that I found that helped me with that was called Spirit of the Witch by Raven Grimasi. He specializes in Italian folk craft and witchcraft, but this book has a really beautiful history of I think European witchcraft in general and what it was like for witches during the transitions in history, away from an earth-based faith towards Abramic religions. So, Spirit of the Witch by Raven Grimasi. It's a really good read. It covers the fundamentals without being specific, and it lets you know basically like, hey, this is what witches believe.

Kim: (pauses) I think that it would... because we're all so different- Is he a native English speaker?

Luke: Yes. Well, no, probably Italian, but he does. He does do English well, not like the me.

Kim: I was... (laughs) that took me a minute. I feel like that's something that would be so individual that it would be hard to find an overarching like, you know. And I never hear about is any sort of Asian witchcraft or paranormal metaphysical, supernatural, whatever.

Luke: In my experience, it's first of all really hard to find those books because number one, nobody cares about them here. Number two, a lot of it is embodied experience from teachers and practitioners who are still living and believing and practicing. So like there are teachers out there who absolutely can tell you more about those things, but the books are harder to find because for good reasons.

Kim: (whispers) What reasons?

Luke: (whispers)  Secrets, I guess.

Kim: (whispers) dammit. (laughs) 

Luke: Because, not that I'm saying they're open practices or closed practices, because honestly I don't know enough to say. 

Kim: Yeah, who knows? I'm American as hell. 

Luke: Same. Yeah, but my inference is that because Americans don't really care, it's not a big part of our even witchy vocabulary, is like what do witches around the world believe? Wouldn't that be a great like overall like overarching book concept, of just like how what what is what is witchcraft and folk magic look like everywhere?

Kim: Yes!

Luke: That would be fun. The other source of info I was going to recommend is obviously the Witch Bitch Amateur Hour-

Kim: Yay!

Luke: ...because Macy and Charlye are so good at diving into specific subjects that I even like as a professional, quote unquote, professional, which I get a lot out of every episode because they're hilarious and they help you understand it and they're just wonderful people and I think they're doing really good work. 

Kim: I agree. Love you, Charlye and Macy!

Luke: Yee!

Kim: Would you say that environment has shaped your practice? Because it sounds like you've lived a bunch of different places in the U.S. at least. If you lived in the desert, would it be different from, well, I don't know, San Antonio is kind of dry, isn't it? There's a river there. I've only been there a couple times.

Luke: I like that you brought up, because I didn't even think about the fact that I have lived in like several different states and geographies, but Texas has pretty agreeable weather. And it's kind of like a combination of everywhere I have lived in terms of like culture and also in terms of just like climate. There are occasional hard freezes, like occasional, it's not, it's not like snowing ever, it's like there's snow one day and then we're done, but there's also like boiling asphalt summers. But other than that, it's, you know, it's pretty, it's pretty easy. And I think that San Antonio surprisingly is a pretty accessible, has a lot of accessible nature. There are a lot of like walking trails and parks and greenways and things like that. It's not as dry as you'd think being in South Texas, but I did also used to live in Laredo and Laredo is pretty much desert, like desert and chaparral, which is just like dry, arid grasslands. But San Antonio has more hills and it's a little bit more topographically diverse. In my heart though, I'm a forest witch, so I know my practice would be very different. If I were in a forest, I think I'd be more of like a survivalist and probably like way more outdoorsy and capable. And I'd probably have more deer and bird and squirrel friends. You know, but other than that, like living in a city has definitely shaped my practice because I'm definitely an urban witch. I'm like, oh, there's a tree there. Great. I can bury my wax there. Or, you know, like it's we still have places in nature where I where we can go, but it doesn't feel as. Wild, if that makes sense. It super does. Although I would like to see if you feel like, okay, you went to Anahata's. So you, did you go into Philadelphia at all?

Luke: Yeah, I have been to Philly before. I have, I actually grew up in Ohio. So like all the sycamores and the big tall oaks and maples, they were all familiar to me. I was like, I know all these trees. It's great.

Kim: But in the city, does it feel different from the city of San Antonio? Magically.

Luke: Yes, definitely. I think that there is, especially on the East Coast, a lot more just straight up like concrete and asphalt because the real estate is more, I guess, hard to come by, right? There's like higher prices and things on real estate because there's only so much of it. Whereas like in Texas, San Antonio was built to be sprawling. Like a lot of these cities are huge. I saw the other, like, actually just this morning, I saw a post that was like, Houston is an hour away from Houston.

Kim: Yeah.

Luke: Like-

Kim: And all those states are like, I can drive through four different states in five hours, what the hell?

Luke: Texas is mad big. It's like huge. It is massive and sprawling. And part of that allows for us to have a natural, I think, element still involved, right? Like we still have big, tall trees and we still have quite a few lungs and places that we can go here in the city that are green and comfy feeling, but not wild, but definitely still, hey, look, we've got nature.

Kim: How do you pull yourself out of a magical slump?

Luke: This is a good question too. I'm, as a full-time mystic, it's hard to build reliable income. And one bad day can lead to a few bad days, which just totally rips my psyche open and leaves me questioning if I have any impact at all. I think that's relatable. But what helps me when I get into those kinds of slumps is shaking it up. Like, for instance, visiting my favorite spot in nature or just doing a walk or for me also writing, like doing a channeled or automatic writing, or writing a letter to a friend, or an email to a past teacher or a friend. That to me helps put my mind at ease and provide perspective. To me I just sometimes got to talk it out and put it into words to make it realize how how much I'm inflating it in my own head.

Kim: Yeah, I'm good at catastrophizing.

Luke: I think we all are.

Kim: I win at catastrophizing! (laughs)

Luke: I'm the worst at it. In fact, it's so bad it's a disaster.

Kim: (pauses) Oh god. You're fired. (both laugh) What is something you wish was discussed more in the witch community?

Luke: I also love that you brought this up because it's... one of my biggest like, oh shit, aha moments is realizing in my own practice that impact is more important than intention. So what that means to me is like when you're early off, everyone's saying, well, it's just, hey, it's my good intentions. Well, we also know that quote, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Right? So like, you're, regardless of whether or not you intend to do well, if your thinking is "This is going to be positive!" If you end up hurting someone, if you end up causing harm in some way, or any way, really, then that impact...

Kim: Causing floods because there's a drought, so you ask for rain?

Luke: Uh-huh. That impact is way more significant than the intention. You have to consider that impact is more important than intention. Intention cannot be everything. If you know that, for example, like I'm gonna give a real easy example, burying a jar spell. That shit's not gonna biodegrade. That's gonna be there for a while. The earth is gonna hold that for you, but that's also trash. To the earth, that's trash. So your impact is you're burying trash in your yard. What your intention is, I want this, I want to be safe, I want to protect myself, right? So like, I feel like you need to gauge impact as part of a spell, you know, before you're even doing it. And, and that just comes down to accountability, which is also like one of those buzzwords that's like, no one wants to talk about, right? This leads to spiritual bypassing, which I'm sure is also kind of a buzzword that people have been talking about. And that's basically toxic positivity, where we say, like, because my intentions are good, everything is all good vibes. Rachel would spit on me for saying all good vibes. Like, I know she is one of those people that's just like, no, real vibes only!

Kim: I actually have some listener questions.

Luke: Yay!

Kim: That I got in between the time that I got the alert that oh yeah I have an interview this morning and the time that I sent you the link. (both laugh) So give me a second to find them...

Luke: Sure. What's something that you wish was discussed more in the witch community, Kim?

Kim: Uhhhh... (laughs) Shit. I'm not prepared at all for that question!

Luke: Well, I mean, you're kind of already doing it. You're having conversations with average witches. You kind of know what people are talking about.

Kim: I vary. Sometimes I wish people would just stop talking.

Luke: All together.

Kim: And actually just think about things for a while.

Luke: Listen... instead of talking, yeah.

Kim: Yeah, but also... the different understandings that you can have about the term gatekeeping. Ah, yes. If you've listened to Southern Bramble, they actually go into how they interpret the term gatekeeping. I have a different interpretation of the word, so I agree with some of what they said, but then I have a different interpretation of it, so I don't completely agree. I just wish- Okay, I don't know that I wish they would talk about it more, not this specifically, but just anything. Just differently. Stop being ready to fist fight.

Luke: Yeah.

Kim: Use active listening and consider what they're saying from their point of view, not just that you're mad about it.

Luke: Right. I think that's important, but people often get hyped up and then they over express that frustration, instead of just actually listening to each other and realizing that actually there's more common ground than you think.

Kim: Yeah. That's what I wish they would discuss. And the way I wish they would discuss it. Okay here's a question from Andrea. Do you use any other divination or mediumship types to complete your readings?

Luke: That is such a good question, Andrea. Yes, I love mixed cartomacy. Like I love mixing tarot and oracle. I think they're beautiful together. But I also really love mixing runes and oracle, or oracle and oracle, or tarot and runes, or pendulum and runes. Like there's, it really... as different tools, it's kind of like saying like a spade versus a shovel versus a spoon, right? Like you can, you can all, you can use them all for kind of like the same thing, but they do the job differently. You know what I mean?

Kim: Yes.

Luke: So, so I do love using all different forms of divination. I love that they also asked about mediumship, because recently I have used cards and sort of just let my intuition guide me. Someone asked about a mediumship session on... like their sister who had passed away and it was her birthday that day, and I was like how could I say no? You know I'm gonna try it. Like I'm not gonna be like I'm not a medium, because like we're all capable of it, and I'm already connected to spirits, so I'm like, let me, I want to see if I can try. So I altered my ritual a little bit, made it a little bit more intentional for for that person and their sister, and using Lenormand sort of just naturally came through with mediumship. I use Oracle or runes to summarize a reading at the end. I think that's a really good way of using them is to just like basically be like here, whatever affirmations I need. It's I think they're meant to be used together. I think that it's meant to be fun and to try different combinations. So yeah play with it, have fun, try it. Like you would be very surprised how well all forms of divination mix.

Kim: Hmm. Where do you want Tarot to take you?

Luke: Oooo, that's a fun question.

Kim: And what obstacles do you think you're gonna have?

Luke: Okay. Okay, cool. Okay. So I feel like I want tarot to take me further on my own journey of self-understanding. And that's kind of how my practice has always been, is that it was for me foundationally. And even now, when I'm doing readings, I'm always like, well, this is advice I should take too. You know, it's like, it's never, you never leave yourself out of the equation. You're still, you're channeling messages from spirit for them, but it's all experientially based, right? It's based on your feelings, your intuition, and your experience. So I feel like I want Tarot to help me continue to radically accept and love myself. And I also hope that Tarot honestly can help us be like a revolutionary tool. I want it to help radicalize people. I want it to make people anti-capitalist and anti-racist.

Kim: Yes!

Luke: Like, that's what I want. 

Kim: I want everything to do that.

Luke: Yeah. 

Kim: Think of the three biggest influences in your life and your practice, does not have to be people, it can be ideas or a book or a TV show or a pet, whatever, and thank them. Three.

Luke: OK, I like that you also specified that it doesn't have to be a person, but my brain already went to people. So I'm gonna tell you, first of all, Jean, my Tarot teacher, she was already reading cards for probably about like 50 years by the time I learned from her.

Kim: Holy moly.

Luke: There is no doubt in my mind that I had the perfect teacher at the perfect time and I'm just so grateful for her imparting foundational wisdom and giving me tools to be a really solid card reader while helping my intuition grow in its own way. Jean had such a beautiful, she was also a teacher, like an elementary school teacher for a really long time, so she had this way of making it feel so much more approachable and less daunting and universal. It was very much a you get the foundations, you understand the basics, and then you let your intuition play. And that's, I'm so grateful to her for that. My second answer is two people in my life, my besties, Lauren and Chris. Chris, you might've met from Anahatas. They're just such loving and supporting people and they always bring a brilliant charisma and sparkly energy anywhere they go, especially into my life, for believing in me when I don't believe in myself and seeing me through my darkest times, inspiring me to be the best version of myself in and out of our relationship. And my third answer is an author, kind of like, I'm kind of going from like closest to like farthest away, but Chani Nicholas is a radical feminist, queer, Canadian pop astrologer. She is, the things that we mentioned earlier, she's like anti-capitalist, anti-racist. She's very aware of our current circumstances and she's younger. And she wrote an astrology book called You Were Born For This, Astrology for Radical Self-Acceptance. And when I read that book, it totally changed my mind about astrology and actually gave me the kick in the ass I needed to start practicing it for not just myself, but for other people. So I want to thank Chani for the permission to observe astrology in my own authentic way, but also for forging the path as a revolutionary spiritual business leader.

Kim: Damn! I want somebody to say that about me. (Luke laughs) I don't know what the hell I'm doing that's inspiring, but shit.

Luke: You're putting in the work, Kim. It's just different flavors of work, right?

Kim: Okay... I'll accept that. (laughs) That's... wow. I hope she hears that.

Luke: I hope so too.

Kim: What advice do you have for a brand new witch?

Luke: (sighs) Lean into change as much as possible, and pay attention to what your fears are and what you feel like you're shying away from, and also what you're drawn to and attracted to. Because spirit's going to take you for a ride either way, and you're going to encounter both. But if you want it to be fun, then you have to surrender the need for control and deeply consider when the divine repeats signs for you. It's like being on a roller coaster, right? Like if you're just scared and anxious and your knees are together and you're like trying to make yourself small, you're not experiencing as much fun as the person who's like letting loose the bar, barely holding them, their arms are up in the air, you know what I mean?

Kim: Why... I took you on this show as a guest and you're calling me out publicly to my face. (Luke laughs) How dare you.

Luke: I love being here. This is such a great opportunity. Thank you so much. (both laugh)

Kim: How dare? (both laugh) I felt every one of those words-

Luke: Good!

Kim: ...beating me about the head and neck area.

Luke: That's good! You gotta lean into change.

Kim: I hate that very much. (both laugh)

Luke: I think that's a big like accidental spiritual thing that happened in my life, because like you've observed, I lived in a lot of different places and we weren't even military. We just moved quite a lot. And I think the fact that we would uproot and take our entire immediate family and go somewhere else. And my mom was very, very courageous in the fact that she was not going to accept less than what she was worth. And that's what she was doing in hospital administration, was constantly moving because she was finding better opportunities.

Kim: Good for her. 

Luke: Yeah. 

Kim: And for you guys. 

Luke: And for us, exactly. It did create so much good for us. And I don't think of these changes as having moved being a bad thing. So even as a kid, like I had to get used to the fact that things are going to change, but change is good. 

Kim: Maybe I've subconsciously like it. Grown to like it. 

Luke: I think we do.

Kim: ...because I was, I moved all over the place. I did not like it because I don't like being the new kid and not knowing where everything is safe and who I'm safe with. I don't like that. But now when I grew up, I joined the military, went all over the place, still like traveling. I'm just lying to myself. Awesome. 

Luke: Yeah, you have...

Kim: Thanks for pointing out my personal foibles or whatever. (laughs)

Luke: You're so welcome, this is great! I'm having a great time. (laughs)

Kim: Stop interviewing me on my own show. (both laugh) Is there anything else you wanted to bring up or any questions that you had for me?

Luke: Actually, yeah, I did want to offer anyone who's listening a discount on my services. I'm offering 20% off for all my Anahata's friends, or for listeners of this podcast, Your Average Witch. You can also catch me on 2 Geminis and a Leo. Until the Lunar New Year, so like mid-February, I'm offering 20% off for my services. So you know, I want to build community, I want to meet people, I want to help people grow and help them learn. I've got an Intermediate tarot class coming up after the beginning of the new year on January 8th. We're going to talk about numerological and astrological correspondences, spiritual hygiene, making new spreads and learning spreads, reversals, we're going to have intuition exercises and cartomancy and time for practice. And that'll be kind of like a seven-week container. Yes, you can find that at linktr.ee/mysticbardlux. All my socials are on there so I'll post a flyer at some point in the near future about it. And I'll be sending out the syllabus in like a week or so. So January 8th, sign up for my intermediate Tarot class. If you're no longer considering yourself a beginner, but want to get into more of like a professional practice and get more confidence reading for other people, that's what this is for.

Kim: Cool! So at the end of the show, I ask two more things of my guests. Thing number one is recommend something to the listeners. It does not have to be witchy at all, just something you're into right now.

Luke: Recommend something for listeners. Um... Listen to classical Indian raga music. R-A-G-A. It has some of the most amazing rhythms and soulful and amazing sounds and it's immediate bliss for me. So I highly recommend that.

Kim: And thing number two is, please tell me a story.

Luke: Okay. So this is one of my favorite stories to tell, because it says a lot about me and the relationships that I have and the people that are still around, right? So someone that I mentioned earlier, Chris, one of my besties, she and I were out of high school, working at Six Flags during the summer, about to start college. And I had never smoked before. And when I say smoke, I mean cannabis. And she was like, we got to get you on this level. Let's try it together. It'll be safe. We'll  sit in a private natural spot in my neighborhood, we'll just be with the trees and the sunset and enjoy a bowl together and laugh and have fun, right? That's a great first time experience. I'm like, perfect. Let's do it.

Kim: It does sound like it would be pleasant.

Luke: It does sound like it would be pleasant. And it was extremely pleasant, until we realized that we were starving and the sun was going down way faster than we anticipated. And we look up in the tree and the branches and it actually says words like eat. E-A-T, like you need to eat something. Nature is like screaming at us to go like eat something because neither of us had eaten all day. And of course, we're just laughing, carrying on, having a great time. As the sun is setting, we're like, okay, we have to – we gotta get up. We got to go get something to eat because our plan is to go to a second location, to another friend's house and smoke more, right?

Kim: Oh, lord!

Luke: Right. Right, so this is my first time smoking on an empty stomach.

Kim: (laughing) Oh my god!

Luke: And as we stand up, I realize I'm about as tall as a building and the floor is miles away from me and I feel wobbly, like my spine just wants to sway. And depth perception is all kinds of messed up at this point. And we get into Chris's house and she says you wait up here, I'll go put my blanket away and I'm gonna make us some PB&Js. Right? Super quick, super easy, great solution, good thinking. So I go upstairs to put Chris's blanket in her room and I put it on the bed and I hear the shower running and then I realized, oh Chris's sister is here. She's having a shower. I don't want to be in Chris's room because they have an attached bathroom and that's weird. So I go back down to the end of the hallway and I sit in a little sitting area that they have near the stairs. Now, I'm on my phone trying to text and words are like applesauce to my fingers, right? And I'm just like, high out of my mind, waiting for a PB&J savior. And I hear that Ronnie has now come out of the shower, and is singing, and just like having a whole vibe by herself and assumes that the house is empty. Because it's dark, there's no lights on and the sun is setting. I also know that she's scared easily, so I don't want to frighten her.

Kim: Oh no! (laughing) 

Luke: But here I am, someone she hardly knows, a large figure sitting in the dark at the end of a hallway. And she, of course, because it's the funniest thing that could happen, comes out of her bathroom in her pajamas, super comfy, singing her little song, probably gonna go to the kitchen and get something to eat. I don't know why it takes Chris so long to make a sandwich at this point. And I'm thinking okay I know Ronnie is going to cross where I am, and I also don't want to alert anybody else in the house, if there is someone. But I also have to let her know that it's okay, right? 

Kim: (laughing) Oh no.

Luke: So my high ass thinks whispering in a yell is a really great idea to make sure that she doesn't get scared. Right? And I'm like, oh great, those are the words I need to use. So as Ronnie comes into view of me, her still completely unaware of my presence, as she enters eyeshot, I go, (whispers loudly) "Don't be scared!" (Kim wheezelaughs) I told y'all. She scares easily, and she fell to her knees in fear. She was screaming for like two and a half seconds fumbling on the wall for a light switch and then when she finally realized it was me and turned on the lights, the screaming immediately turned into laughter. And that was the first time I spoke to her. And we're still all really good friends.

Kim: Oh my god... don't be scared (laughing) 

Luke: Yeah, isn't that the, like, that's the, why? Why is that the solution?

Kim: (laughing) Yeah, *definitely* not what a monster would say. Oh my god. (laughing)

Luke: The whisper yell gets me. I could have been like, "Hey Ronnie, I'm here," you know? But like speaking in that tone of voice, that casual, like probably maybe would have made it a little bit less, like-

Kim: Terrifying?

Luke:  I still contend that I think I did the best thing because it was only about two seconds of screaming and then right into laughter.

Kim: You couldn't reach a light switch?

Luke: No, unfortunately no, and I didn't and because I was just like I'm just here I'm just existing and melting into this chair becoming one with it, and I didn't think "I'll turn on the light."

Kim: That's a not-high thought I just had. So never mind. (both laugh)

Luke: Yeah. What do you mean lights? There are no light fixtures.

Kim: I have my light in my hand. It's my phone. I don't need any other lights because I'm only looking at my phone. 

Luke: Yeah, and let me shine it underneath my face. 

Kim: Yeah! (both laugh) Oh my gosh. (sighs) Thank you so much for the story.

Luke: I'm sorry it's so long. But yeah, it's a good one. 

Kim: Oh, yeah, that was it was the perfect length. It was the perfect subject. Well thank you again for being on the show. I had a really good time. It was nice to talk to you again.

Luke: Yeah, this was so much fun and you're an amazing interviewer.

Kim: Oh, yay, thanks. And I will see you on the internet and in September at Anahata's.

Luke: Yes, I'm so excited about it.

Kim: Oh me too! Okay thanks, bye!  (pauses) Luke. 

Luke: Kim.

Kim: Yes?

Luke: Huuuh? 

Kim: Welcome to Hive House! (both laugh)

Luke: Hi? 

Kim: So we're gonna do the thing, I know you have other questions, but we're gonna do a surprise thing. (fades out)

Luke: (fades in) Set the scene. Obviously there's candles because it's a summoning circle, right? So all the electronic lights go out and then ethereal harp music starts to play. And then a thick, low-hanging fog begins to roll out of the ground from the summoning circle, and any plants in the room begin to grow visibly. 

Kim: Ooooo!

Luke: And then I probably just step in from a doorway already eating... (fades out) 

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