Justify's Jujus. Celebrate your weird.

This week I talked to Justify of Justify's Jujus, a queer witch in Florida. Justify tells us about sharing space with spirits, coming out, and why you should embrace your weirdness.

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Transcript

Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where every Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft. Your Average Witch is brought to you by Clever Kim's Curios. 

This week I talked to Justify of Justify's Jujus, a queer witch in Florida. Justify tells us about sharing space with spirits, coming out, and why you should embrace your weirdness. 

Before we get started on the stories I just wanted to invite you to come see me! I'll be vending as Clever Kim's Curios at TarotCon at Bookman's East next weekend on October 28th. It's from 4-9pm at 6230 E Speedway here in Tucson. Then next month, come see me at Phoenix Pagan Pride on November 4th! I'll be selling amazing witchy jewelry and giving away Your Average Witch merch. I might even do a few on the spot interviews, so come prepared! Phoenix Pagan Pride will be on Saturday, November 4th from 9 to 5 at 300 E Indian School Road. 

Now let's get to the stories! 

Kim: Hello Justify, welcome to the show!

Justify: Hi. Thanks for having me on.

Kim: Thanks for coming on. Will you please introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do and where they can find you?

Justify:  Hi, so I'm Justify and I'm from Orlando, Florida, and you can find me on instagram @justifiesjujus and then also, my website is justifiesjujus.com. And my podcast, actually with my co-host Kane at The Satyrs and Sinners on Spotify. And then, yeah, what I do is I have a, I feel like I'm like a little bit of a jack of all trades but pretty much within the realm of a herbal, I have a herbal background knowledge, like in herbalism. I practice witchcraft, and I have like... diving deeper into this specifically, this upcoming season, I've been diving a lot deeper into my own shadow, through shadow work, providing also shadow work sessions. And I can talk a little bit about this. This is a new journey for me, but I'm actually going to class to learn hypnotherapy, to be a hypnotherapist. So that's new. I don't have a lot yet. I'm still learning a lot, but I have a little bit on it, but I'm not quite through that yet. But I have a little bit of this, a little bit of that, but kind of all in like the wellness realm. Yeah.

Kim: Love it. Terrifying, but I love it.

Justify: Yeah. I know. It's like, wow. A lot of different things, but I like at different points in my life that I like focus on them. So I wasn't like all at once. It was like this part of my life. I learned this, and then the next part of like my life, like later on, like I learned that. So it was kind of like gradual, but it seems like a lot like just throwing it out there. (laughs)

Kim: The hypnotherapy, that makes me afraid.

Justify: Oh,, well, so then speaking of shadow work...

Kim: No, no!

Justify: No, okay. (laughs) I was like, speaking of shadow work..

Kim: I literally just came from Anahata's Purpose last weekend and that's mainly what we do there. And so, although I didn't go to any classes, no one call me out, how dare you. (Justify laughs) I've cried so many, so much in the past week. I feel pretty shadowed up right now, so... noooo!

Justify: It's a- it could be intense, especially, it could be many things. It's a... shadow is so many, it's not one specific. It's not, it doesn't look one specific way. It has many faces. And that's something I realized. But there are underlining, a lot of what Shadow is a lot of underlining childhood trauma. You know, and like our trauma. Right, exactly. And it's connected to generational trauma. So, you know. But yeah, Shadow, and then like hypnotherapy isn't really what you, well, then again, there's hypnosis and then there's hypnotherapy. So I think some people do street hypnosis where they'll go and they'll, I've seen it on TV, I'm still learning more about that part of it, how it functions, but this is more like being in a therapeutic situation or an environment. So those are differences. I think it's really the environment and how this is going about which makes the difference with hypnosis. But to be honest, I think a lot of what I think most common people think of like hypnosis is that, you know, if someone puts you, or not really puts you, but you go into a trance state, and that they're gonna like take advantage of you or anything like that. And it's actually- 

Kim: Suddenly I'm a chicken. 

Justify: Right, and it's like actually not really like, quite like that. I've seen they had like a movie called Hypnotic or something like that, and it actually brings into that fear of being taken advantage of or things like that. But in a therapeutic setting, it's all consensual. So the therapist is actually speaking to the unconscious mind of the patient or the client, actually more client, not patient. For the client and you're consenting. So you're accessing, you're allowing the unconscious mind to speak and to say like, you know, do you at the very beginning before you start anything, before, if it's a good hypnotherapist, before you start you have to have that consent and you ask the client, you know, do you consent to blah blah blah, and then they say yes or no. And then if they say yes, and then, then from there on, you have access to their unconscious, and then you go from there. But it's not anything what I think most people think of it is. And so, yeah. But again, like I said, I'm still learning a lot. But I've had a lot of demystifying, or the demything of what most people think it is and what actually happens, like, you know, in a session.

Kim: Today years old when I realized that I did not consider that hypnotherapy and hypnotizing is two different things.

Justify: Yeah. I mean, technically, if you think about trance or altered states, which I guess goes right into, which is why I find it so fascinating with like witchcraft specifically, and Ecstatic states that can bring us into trance which is altered states of conscious essentially. That you know, in reality we are all like influenced everybody in our day to day because you have the conscious mind and you have the unconscious mind and like Conscious is what we currently what we think we know or what we are knowing consciously. But a lot of things that we're-

Kim: The things we're we're thinking?

Justify: That's the thing, and that is actually it. The conscious mind is the thinking mind. And the unconscious mind is everything else. And the unconscious mind is what rules a lot of our behaviors. So as an example, nail biting or hair twirling or things like that, it's all unconscious. You don't know why you do it, but you do it. And so that is the unconscious mind. And as an example, that's because I never really understood what is unconscious mind, what is that? And then I had it explained that way and I was like, that makes sense. That that makes a lot of sense. So and they gave us the exercise and examples on how to access it. But yeah, all right. I know I feel like I'm like jabbering now. (laughs) But yeah, so I think it's interesting. I'm learning a lot about that.

Kim: So what does it mean to you when you call yourself a witch?

Justify: A witch. Actually, you know what? That came up today. I was, um, again, it came up today and I was speaking with a good friend of mine, uh, Juju. Um, and I brought that up because that had me think about it. It's something that like comes up often. It's like, you think, okay, yeah, I'm a witch, boom, and you do your thing. But then it came up again, I'm like, hmm, what is that? You know, and to be honest with you, I'm going to go with the general of like, it really is very ambiguous to like, it doesn't have a fixed, like, definition. And I feel like that in of itself as a witch is that. It's not defined. You can't really completely define. You can give, I feel like for me, and that's how I feel for myself, like, I mean, I identify as queer, you know, as a queer person. And I think in and of that self, a lot of definitions of who I feel like I am, and redefining who I am, is like shape-shifting. It's like coming in and out of these labels, or whatever I am or have to be. And it's that. One moment it's like this, and then the next it shifts, and then it's this. I don't know if the term is amorphous, but I feel like that is what I feel like aa witch is, to me, at least. But also, really developing a relationship with spirit and continuing that as a practice, as a way of living. I'm most connected with spirits, specifically, but I'm most connected with plant spirits. I have some that I cultivate on my property, like Elder, which I love her so much. She's helped me go through sickness and regular everyday things. She's there, and I know that, and I feel strong when I'm around her. And making medicine with the berries and the flowers. And datura, which is another plant that I cultivated on my property. Just observing the behaviors and how the fragrance of the flowers, and how in and of themselves, with datura, how trance-inducing it is, kind of almost like stupor, almost, like it puts you in a stupor. And I noticed it and I was like, wow, this is wild. And just its power, that's one of its powers. And I'm just like, I love it. And it's just like, that's what I feel like to me, what a witch is. It's really involving and engaging. It's involvement and engagement with your practice, with yourself and with your environment, inner environment as well. It's the inner terrains, but also external, like being able to connect with our land, with my land and my home and my property, but also going outside of that and really exploring. My herbal background as an herbalist, I think, helped a lot of that. And then, you know, the fauna as well, you know, our possums that- I'm in Florida. So we have possums and armadillos and squirrels and different kinds of corvids and gators and things like that. And just, you know, observing them and just being around them and respecting them. Yeah, and other kinds of spirits. I am starting to work more now, developing a stronger bond with my grandmother that passed away in 2020. I believe if it wasn't for the fact that she... she choked on a piece of bread when she was in an assisted living space, and that's how she passed. But I feel like if that was not the cause of her passing, she'd probably still be alive. She was German, so she's really spunky and spicy and fiery. And I still feel like she visits me in my... I've had her visit in my dreams, and I love it because I had such a strong connection with her growing up. She raised me a lot growing up. My grandfather, he passed away when I was like fourth grade. So I knew of him, and I remember things of him, but I don't really have a strong, vivid experience and memory that I do with my, well, I call her my Oma, my grandmother, for German. And so I still feel her and I'm like, we have an altar for her, for them, both of them. So I guess some people say there's like ancestral, ancestral veneration, which is, I feel like really important. I'm starting to come back into that, and wanting to just kind of develop it a little bit more because even though I know like physically, you know, we grieve over, and grieving is that... it doesn't really feel like a never-ending process, but it can be not linear. And so I feel like there's parts of me that I never really fully processed through her death in 2020. So I'm, I feel like now that we're shifting into the season of like cooler, and it's going to be darker, and I don't know if things can kind of, for me, slow down in certain ways, I can really hone in and focus on that. So actually that's what I'm really excited about for my practices in this way. I don't know if that was helpful, but... (both laugh)

Kim: So you mentioned your grandmother. Did you have any... Do you feel like you have any family history with witchcraft? Did anybody practice in your childhood?

Justify: To be honest, it was never really... She grew up Catholic, even though she wasn't. She was the Catholic that was a Catholic because you... that's what your mom was, that's what you were, so I guess that's what you are now. But she never really went, and put it this way: she wasn't a practicing Catholic. So that's probably easier to say it that way. So that's what she was. But other than that, not really. But I'm going to be honest with you. And the room, the house is like a four bedroom house that actually we still reside in. We split everything, me and my mother, we split everything down the middle. But there was like a room that we had that was her like, kind of like den, sort of. And I still have them now, but they call them hexes or hexens in German. And so like, there's two witches that they're like dolls, and they are on brooms, and they were hanging from the ceiling. And as a child I remember them, and always asked her, like I didn't get it, I didn't understand then. And I would ask like what are they, and what is that, what is a hex, I didn't get it then. And now that I'm older obviously, doing, understanding that, I see it. I didn't get it then but I see it now kind of thing. So it's kind of like that but she was like, oh yeah, they're from Germany and I brought them over and you hang them in the house for protection. And I was like, oh, okay. And I didn't. I was like, what? Protection from what? I didn't get it. But now it's a whole different perspective and I have them, I kept them because they're sentimental. They have that,  they're from her. And so I kept them. And I keep them the same way that they were as she, when she was here. So other than that, what I would consider quote unquote, like, witch related, no, like no one's ever said like, oh, your grandmother was a witch or nothing like that. It wasn't any, I never had any exposure other than just that one story.

Kim: Is it like those kitchen witches that people had back in the 80s?

Justify: I think so, but because they're from Germany.

Kim: Like a kerchief on her head?

Justify: Yeah, yes, yeah, and they're on their little brooms. Yeah. Yeah, they have their little, like the little head, one has like glasses, she's got like blue like checkered white and blue dress. And she's on her broom, and she's got these little warts on the nose. And the other one's purple. Almost kind of reminds me of the older, if Sarah Sanderson actually aged, that would be her. The purple, you know what I mean, like burgundy purple kind of outfit with a little hoodie. And then on her broom too. And I have them on opposite sides hanging in my room near my altar. So yeah, and I keep them. That reminds me of her and it's more of a memory and then also like keeping that my Oma, you know, was, you know, that she had them for protection in this house and I just keep them here. I'm like, I'm gonna keep that going, like almost like the tradition of it. So. Yeah.

Kim: That's cool. So do you have any consistent rituals or practice that you'll share?

Justify: Rituals... Yeah, I have been it's it's, it's been it's been challenging. Yes, I do have. I do have my altars, my sacred sacred space that I have for just my stuff. My room right now is, the whole of it is my space, but I do carve out a specific space where I do ritual for myself. If anything, in life I try to find that balance and maintain the balance of the everyday work life, friends, things like the hustle and bustle. But I always try to at least, if I'm burning some incense or something for my spirit soul, I have some, they're like these little, actually they're from my Oma too, which I just thought about. They're like little shot, they look like shot, they're not glasses, they're actually like a metal? And I use those for, like, I pour libations into them and I leave them there, you know. So I like offerings as anything, as like being able to feed my spirits and give them that like space. And then ever so often, you know, like cleaning off, like taking everything out, cleansing it, and then rearranging and putting things maybe a little differently, but sometimes similarly. But other than that, this past, I would say, couple months since I've actually started this new job has really shifted my relationship with it. And I do feel a shift now, I mean if people who are following planetary movements and etc, like the moon phases. I do feel  it within this, the work that I just had that job in, like I feel like it's also moving out as I got it, and I think that will really help me come back into my practice, and in actually really giving the attention that I actually need to give then I than I wasn't before. So that is something I'm actually and then and then when it gets cooler too like I'm really like when it gets cooler I'm gonna open my windows and like just...

Kim: Come back alive!

Justify: Yeah, yeah. Like I do, it's gonna be cooler and like open the windows, like sweep, like to take everything out and like that's what I'm I'm waiting for it. Like I'm I'm like, just I can't wait. I can't, yeah.  I'm waiting for it to happen so that way, like I'm literally, the day that we get that nice transitional seasonal breeze. Because we're, again, for those who are listening, I'm in Florida. So cold here, like I said, December, January, we actually get cold. But I think October, it might drop a little bit, a little bit. But I'm waiting for that breeze. And just so that way I can, with the movement of the breeze and the air and the season of that shift, that in of itself is movement. And so I want to go with the natural cycle of movement of, if there's movement in the leaves and the changes and the, the breeze, like I want to let that in and like move the, cause there's, in my room like there's like sitting, it's like there's sitting energy and I feel it and I just need to like, I want to work with nature to allow that to move through my space and do a deep clean, and restart and refresh and come back to my space again. But in the meantime, I do my best to at least try to maintain, like right now,  maintaining the offerings and libations and stuff to them. So they don't, I don'tt want to like completely forget. So it's just, it's been a shift, but yeah, I would say that ritualistically. 

Kim: I get it. My listeners may have noticed that the things that they were hearing were from like February because once it got to be, I don't know, April, the temperature just shot up to like the hundreds and my air conditioner ran constantly and I couldn't record. And I'm glad that I obsessively recorded like eight or nine interviews a week for about two months, because I've been living off that. (laughs) Because it's Arizona and it's it's hot. 

Justify: Hot. I'm sure it's dry, right? Like a dry heat?

Kim: Yeah.

Justify: Okay.

Kim:  Yup.

Justify: Here it's hot and humid. It's like the difference is the humid- right, no, because like the difference with dry heat is it's hot, but like it's dry, so like-

Kim: You don't feel quite as hot all the time.

Justify: Right. And here you get hot, but it's humid, so then you get it, like you feel sticky. It's like-

Kim: Yeah, I was going to say, everything in your whole life just sticks to your body.

Justify: Yeah, and that actually could be connected to how energy can just stick to you, you know? And I feel like that's very trans... like it translates over into... yeah. So that's why as it gets cooler, it's gonna be cooler and coolness has a dryness.

Kim: And we can let go of things.

Justify: Yeah, that's why I'm like, I'm ready. I'm like, come on, mercury came out of the microwave, everything, girl, just like...

Kim: Just let me open my front door.

Justify:  Just like, and then you can also, you could save on energy too. You can like open your windows.

Kim: Right. Having a $400 electric bill would be amazing. Super nice.

Justify: Because then that money can go other places that it needs to go.

Kim: Hello.

Justify: Right. Yeah, but that's a ritualistically, that's, that's where I'm at.

Kim: How would you say witchcraft changed your life?

Justify: Okay, let's dive deep. Here we go. Strap on your fins, girl. Strap on your fins. It has, I actually, same, I had this come up recently too. It has changed my life and it's still, to this moment, still changing my life. And that's why, like, when you said, like, what is a witch? I was like, that it's just, it's ever moving. It's just constant. But I was gonna say, I grew up, you know, in a, like, I don't want to say, like, strict Christian household, but, and I did have to go to church. And I'm still working through some of my own personal religious trauma through it. And I think that's how I was drawn even more and more. I feel like they kind of pushed me to it. I left because I just didn't feel personally, where I was at that time, supported. And it didn't feel good. Going to church, I just didn't get it. I didn't know why. No one explained anything to me. I had a lot of questions that no one could give me any real answers to. Even though I know and of itself is its own personal journey, but it felt to, I think, to be honest with you... I feel like this is going to be loaded, I'm going to say it anyways. I feel like to be a witch, not like born, but I feel like you just know. Because I've always, by nature, have been, like, I'll ask questions. And I know in the church, you really don't ask questions. Whatever they say, you just go with it. And yeah, that's what it is. And I'm like, but is it? Even just saying that is blasphemous. I've always been that way. I've always been curious. I've always just tried to do my own thing. Even coming out as queer at a young age. I knew coming out was going to be a challenge at the time in high school. And I was like, well, you know what? Like, I have to accept myself as I am. Cause if I don't, then there's nothing else. Right? So I did it. I was like, boom, here I am. Kind of very like a statement, but a statement in to be like, it was my way of like, it's my way of like protecting myself because if I just accept the things that I already am and explore it, then people can try to like make fun of you or whatever. I'm like, but you're, you're telling me something I already know, like don't, like, you know what I mean? Like, so at that point, I just felt like my queerness at an early age of just being who I was, like wearing a rainbow belt into high school, especially an all-athletic-driven high school. It was a statement, but it was like, this is me. And not even that, but it was also like... it was more than just being gay, because even then I was like, there's more to this. And it was like, just being able to be myself, being weird. Being weird and not necessarily different, but being who I am, and the strangeness that I'm becoming, especially being, I guess, a witch in that way, the strangeness, the odd things, the things that interest us that are not common for most people, is me. And I was like, so it wasn't even just coming out as gay, it was coming out as me. And that's how I feel like whatever that was, and whatever it is at the time in high school. And so that's what it just felt like. And then I would, so I've always been very, in certain ways, very like... a little bit adversarial (laughs) by nature, just like questioning things and like, you know, pushing against, you know. Like I would go to church and I would skip, because I just didn't, I would go because I had to, but I would get there and then I would, almost like skipping class, I would skip sessions or whatever you call them, and I would go hang out in the playground or whatever with a friend. And then we would run back and be there right when it let out for the adults or whatever. Yeah, so very mischievous in that way. I guess you could say even by saying that, it just goes to show like I did what I wanted. And not in a way that was like, did what I wanted to hurt people. I did what I wanted and I did me. And that's what it was and that's how I feel like I've always been. And I feel like the nature of that kind of alludes to my, I think, in my path of where I'm at now. It almost is very telling of where I'm going, and it's right where I'm at now.

Kim: Good. That's my kind of people.

Justify: Yay. (laughs) But we are really othered, very much so. Like it's just the challenges of being alone. Like and not alone to be like, woe, like play my little violin, but alone like, it is ostracizing.

Kim: Not having backup.

Justify: Yeah, ostracizing because you're the weirdo. Yep. We're the weirdos, mister. But like, very much so. But like, very much so. And it's challenging. On a mental, emotional level, I think I'm only child. I have like a brother and a sister, and I have a lot of people in my life that I consider family. And the brother and sister, I mean, they're not blood related, but we're really close. Like, I've known them at a really young age. So I have a lot of people like that, like chosen family that I would consider very much so to say still family. But other than that, biologically, I'm only child. So I spent a lot of time not by myself, like I have friends and stuff I grew up with, but I did a lot of things still by myself. And I think that also kind of, you know, I was alone in a way, if that makes sense. Not to be like sad, but to be like alone, like... I like it. Like I can do what I want to do and like I can like the things that I want to like. And you know, and that's what it was when I was younger. And then over time, I think there was other influences, but I feel like I'm coming back a little bit more into that now. So, yeah. 

Kim: Not having to worry about other people's desires or needs is really freeing. When you can do it. I'm not saying that we should always do it, but I do think it's something we all need periodically. 

Justify: Yeah, like it's liberating. And that's why they would say like, oh, like the, I would consider you know, maybe the folk, folk witch devil, you know, the liberator, is freeing. The idea of freedom is to just be authentically you, even if it's messy. There's a part of that, the shadow, that is you. It's not othered, it's you. But we other it, because we don't want to see that part of us that's messy. Even though we are. As humans, right? And I feel that, being able to, that's part of my practice too, is continue. It's not something you just do one day and then you're free. It's a continual thing. And so, yeah, I mean, you make strides in it, but new things come up, and even for myself. And it is liberating, but again, it goes back into like, the more free you are for yourself, the more to society you look like you're like the weirdo, or you're the one that's like, oh, stay away from that. Like, they're... 

Kim: Other is dangerous.

Justify:  Yeah, but it's like, also at the same time, reflected back to them, it's a mirror. It's a direct mirror. It's a literal mirror to share with them and to say, you know, it's okay to have your practices and follow other people and other, you know, things like that. But also, like, it's also okay to find out what you are about. Like, know thyself, you know. And that's, I think, the most powerful, like, phrase as a witch. Or any magical practice, I think is a great phrase or thing, but I think is the most powerful aspect of a witch is know thyself. You know, know you because a part of being a witch is we take accountability and responsibility for ourselves, being self-governed, sovereignty over ourself. And it takes a strong person to do that, because accountability and responsibility even goes down into the things that, when you make a mistake or you do a like a, forgive my mouth, but when you do a fuck up, essentially, you know, and it's okay. Like, we're human, like, that's part of the mess, like, it's okay, you know? And as long as we are then being like, you know what, I'm owning up to whatever this is, whatever that happened, whatever transpired. I'm going to take accountability and responsibility for this that I have enacted on this. And that is the difference, I feel like, for me. It's not easy, because the ego kind of sort of sets in and is like, no, you didn't do anything wrong, or it's them, not you. And some cases, I think it's good to reflect, but also, you know, and see like, if it really is, you know, you. Or what part do you what part do you play in this role? Or what part do you play in a dynamic?

Kim: Yeah, accountability is important.

Justify: Accountability. Mm hmm.

Kim: What would you say is your biggest motivator in your practice? And has it changed since you first started practicing?

Justify: Motivator in my practice. Honestly, just the awe of the practice in and of itself. I think why I keep doing what I'm doing is because the more that I do it, the more I find myself, or I find a part of myself that I didn't get to explore when I was young because I was told who to be and what to be. I think that, through witchcraft, is to kind of go back in a couple questions that you said to kind of weave this together, is I think that's really what it is. I feel like I can tap into a part of me that I never, or not that I never, but that I didn't feel like I could, or should. There's that, the should, right? 

Kim: I love that! 

Justify: Yeah. And now that's so it's like it's, it isn't, and yeah I mean it's terrifying. I'm telling people like, people are like, yeah, they're like no girl. It is also very terrifying, like, and it's okay to say that it's okay to say witchcraft is terrifying. Like it's the part of the path in and of itself. It's weaving the light and the dark together. And you're gonna get into those darker parts of yourself. And that's what really I feel like for myself, and like I said, continual, it's a continual journey. As far as I've gotten now, there's more to go. And I am really excited, and I know there's parts where I've like, I don't want to say slack or lack, but I definitely say have allowed my attention to go to things that don't benefit me. And being able to come back to my craft, it was always, it's always there. Like, so it's not like I've ever lost, like I'm never gonna lose it, but it's always gonna be there. But the thing is like, and that's the thing with like, it's there for me and I'm there for it. And it's that relationship. It's a relationship with your craft. And I come back and I feel at home and I'm like, okay, oh my gosh, like, it has been a rough week, a rough month, but you know what? Like, I'm going to pour my libations. I'm going to give my offerings to my spirits. I'm going to light my candle and sit there and just be. And sometimes it's just sitting there and being, and that's it. Or if I'm actually doing like a work specifically, then yeah, that's different. But sometimes I just sit there and be at my altar with the spirits there and that's it. I just sit there and be and if something comes through, it does, if it doesn't, that's all that matters. I have something that's mine, but mine in the way that's like, I don't have to share it with someone in that way. I can have this for me, carve out this space for me and my spirits. But again, I don't mind sharing some of that with people. Just certain things are for us, for me and the spirit.

Kim: Mhmm. Yeah.

Justify: Yeah. And that's okay.

Kim: What is your biggest struggle when it comes to witchcraft?

Justify: Struggle. I would say thus far, when I hit those points of terror, you know, it's like, oh, wow, hi. And then working through that. But also, I was going to say, going back to the original, is the consistency of maintaining the, like I said, the consistency of it, is maintaining it and the maintenance of it in the way that, like I said, getting too caught up in the world and not coming back to that. And there are points in my life where I will be heavily in it, and I'm in my craft, and then there will be points where I get swept away with the world, you know? And it's very real. And then I'm reminded, because of the world, that I get burnt out, or I just need to... I'm like, all right, I need to check back in with my myself and my craft and come back and light my candle. So I'd say like that is that's probably the challenging part. And then also dating. (laughs) Or just like relationships. Lke I've had, you know, like it really does. People think it's, you know, whatever and like, "Oh, you worship the devil?" And I'm like, Not what you quite think. Yes and no, but this is a lot to go into. And I just met you. At this point, I'm like, here's some resources. Like you can do your own research into it. I can share what I want, but I feel like it's just, it gets exhaustive to like, you know. People that come from a background that is primarily like Christian, even if they don't actually go to church, they say, I'm Christian, they're Christian because of their upbringing or whatever, and then they like perceive you a certain way and then they like try to like bring you to God. I don't know.

Kim: Oh no.

Justify:  I'm like, listen, I was there. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't, right. And it's like I said, she leads a lonely life and it's that.

Kim: Nobody's ever said dating before, so that's a fun answer. 

Justify: Right, dating is a part of it because, I mean, being as a witch, it's not something you kind of turn on and off. Like you are. You practice, it's a lifestyle. It's the way that you live it. And so you are a part of me being queer. I don't just turn off and on when I want to be gay. It is a part of me every day. It's the thing. So it's kind of like the thing I struggled with is acceptance from people, especially in the dating world, where they might struggle accepting some parts, like those parts of me. And it's still me at the end of the day, but it's just those things that they're struggling with because of their upbringing and perspective and mind space of what they think they know, or what they perceived as like bad, or hell, or I don't know whatever they think that is. And, and yeah, and it's funny because they... No, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. What were you gonna say?

Kim: You reminded me I, I used to ask this question, do you think being a witch is a choice? And, you know, people would say yes or no or have their arguments. But to me it is like being gay in that, okay, if you are a witch, whether you practice or not, you're still a witch.

Justify: I agree. It's kind of like, oh God, it's coming out. It's like all the things I just, I feel it. It's like, okay. So like, I mean, I'm also biracial. My mom's side is German, Germanic, like my Oma I mentioned. Which I have a stronger, this is for what it was, my upbringing. I had a stronger connection to my mom's side of the family than my dad, but my dad's side is black, which I know black is like, okay, well, black is a shade, not, what is that? So, I did a little bit of ancestral, like, digging. I want to do it again just to kind of verify that my sources are accurate, but for what I could dig up, a little bit of, like, Nigerian on, like, DNA-wise, like, Nigerian, like, Egyptian, and, like, Middle Eastern on my dad's side, like in that aspect of what we consider black. But yeah, so multiracial black. So growing up having that, I feel it's like... I can't not be black, or I cannot be just white. Like I am what I am. You know, I can't just turn it on or off like it is what it is. And it's kind of like that with like or gay or like a witch, like it is just you, and or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, you know, and I think, and that might even go to speaking, you know, I don't know. I feel like we're talking about so many, all the controversial stuff coming up. Let's do like the controversial episode. (Kim laughs) But like Michael Jackson, and you know, like maybe his struggle and his upbringing. I don't know him. I don't know, met the man in my life and rest his soul. But you know, like the conflict with, you know, our skin tone and things like that, or being gay and like not wanting to be gay because you...

Kim: It's hard.

Justify:  Yeah, or being queer because society, it's all the things that how society perceives us. And we change ourselves, the parts of ourselves that are who we are because the greater whole, or not greater whole, but like society deems... 

Kim: I see the finger quotes as I hear you say that.

Justify: Yeah. Society says, you know, these are bad or don't do that or don't be that, and then we're like, okay, okay. You know, like, and then we change, because we want to make them comfortable, you know? And that's, it's a part of that. It's like being comfortable and uncomfortable. Like being gay, being black, being whatever, being a witch. Like, it's... people that don't like it, they're uncomfortable. But it's like, guess what? It is what it fucking is. Like, you know, I said what I said, kind of thing.

Kim: How do you think it feels to know that they're uncomfortable just because we fucking exist? I mean, how do they think that feels? Sor- I'm not even sorry that they're uncomfortable. Good! Join the fucking crowd.

Justify: Join- here's your card. It'll come in the- actually, you know what? Here's this- your card will come in the mail. It might take a couple business days, but you'll get it.

Kim: Welcome to humanity, bitch.

Justify: Right, like, you know, and it's like, your dis- it's like I start to realize, like, their discomforts are a moment to take, to like step out of their discomfort. Just for a moment. And really examine it for themselves. It's not my job to examine your discomfort. It's your job to look at your own discomfort and look at how you can use your discomfort as an opportunity to grow.

Kim: Hello!

Justify: Because, right? Your discomfort is telling you, it's telling you inside, you can grow from this. But we don't, because we are so used to creating these bubbles of comfort. Don't get me wrong, I love my, you know, my space is my comfort, you know, we have our zones, our comfort zone. And yes, we do need our moments to like relax and chill, but at the same exact time, we also need to push and grow and grow. And if you're living in a-

Kim: To share space with other people.

Justify: Right, and it's, because that's what that's what Earth is! (Kim laughs) It's, that's what this whole planet is, is sharing space with spirits sharing space with the flower, the plants, the flora, the fauna, the mineral kingdom, the elements, the down to the people, you know, it's, it's an ecology, you know what I mean? It's and that's part of as a witch, as an animist, someone that really is like, you have to really view things as this is a shared space. Yes, you can carve out, like if you look at animal nature, right? So the animal, and even in the plant kingdom, certain behaviors of, you know, plants and flora, flora, fauna, you know, what we call territory, like territorial animals, like they have their territory, or plants that will kill other, plants will produce chemicals in the ground that will kill off or ward away other plants because this is my territory. So it's very interesting, but humans do it too. We do it down. It's something that I think is worth exploring, but at the same exact time, you go into a jungle. There's plants everywhere. They're coexisting. To the fungus, to the fauna there that coexists with the flora. So even though they have their own territories, they still live together at the same time. So I think that's kind of this very interesting thing that I just went down that rabbit hole. (both laugh) But yeah, it is interesting. But I just think that it's really, like I said, a shared space. It's a shared space. And being able to have something for you is important, you know? But then also know that it's not all for you. Meaning like, you know what I mean? And that really, I think, balances out. It gives us balance of humbleness. It humbles us to be like, you deserve to have your place, like you have your space. Like yeah, have your home. But also, this is not all yours. Like, there are other beings and spirits here that also need their space too. And you're like, okay, I get that. You know, that makes sense. And then it's balanced, ideally. It's like in a quote-unquote perfect world.

Kim: Absolutely.

Justify: Yeah.

Kim: What is your favorite tool in your practice, and why, and how do you use it? And it does not have to be a physical object. 

Justify: That's a good question. All right. Well, I would say myself, because I, you know, the vessel I am. But I would also say, through divination, I have my cards that I use to work with. So before I do a working, which I've learned over time. In the beginning I didn't, but then over time I learned through people in my life that helped also influence my craft. Recommended, suggested doing divinations before doing any type of work. And then I was like, it makes so much sense and I love that and it works. So, through mistakes and failures, I learn. So divination, so my cards, and then I have a pendulum that I made from... I had a datura root that I... Well, datura plant, and then it died. It died, died, not just died back, but it died. So I harvested it and then I crafted it into a pendulum that I use for either working with the dead or just spirits in general. Like getting more of like a yes or a no kind of answers, versus like the cards being not so direct yes or no. Or like they might lean towards yes or no, but there's more to it. Where those are my divination tools that I use. And then I have a rattle that I crafted with oak and oak wood and these seed pods that grow here in Florida. It's like a tree and there's like these brown pods and they, when they dry out, they hit the ground and then they'll just like sit there, they'll rot away or they'll dry out. And they rattle, like if you shake it, it has a rattling sound. I was like, this would be perfect to make it to a rattle. So I just crafted it into this oak wood. And I made a rattle and I've used that for my own like, trance states and also like helping to disperse energies and like stagnant energies in rooms. So I have used that to kind of, that rhythm kind of get myself into a trance state. So my rattle and my divination tools that I utilize are my like go-to. Those are like my go-to's. But I have a couple other tools too. But those are just, I guess, to make it simple, those are my go-to's.

Kim: I want to make a rattle now.

Justify: Yeah! It's, I mean, there's the tools we have, not the tools we have around us, just, I mean, it's the things you least expect. Like I was like out walking, I saw this like really weird bean looking thing and I pick it up and I'm like, and I'm like, and I shook it and I'm like, it rattles. I'm like, Ooh, I like this. And then immediately just kind of hit me. And I was like, I'll make a rattle of it. And I love it.

Kim:  That's awesome.

Justify: Yeah.

Kim: Think of the three biggest influences on your practice. What would you thank them for?

Justify: So would you say-

Kim: It doesn't have to be people.

Justify: Oh, okay. I would say I have like some people that I would say that I have a mentor, Matthew Venus. Shout out to you, Boo, if you're listening. And Matthew Venus, my mentor, SpiritusArcanum on Instagram. Little shout out there. Definitely has helped me sharpen and maybe even redefine some of my craft. I like a lot of it to be through my own personal experiences, but I think it's super helpful to have, through your craft, like some kind of mentor to give another fresh perspective on it and things that we don't see, especially because we don't have exposure to. So I really do appreciate him. And then also Austin, BaneXBramble, love you girl, has shown me a lot too through their methods and their podcasts. It's more inspirational to be inspired, to really just jump down my own rabbit hole and do that. So, yeah, I would say those two through my practice. And to be honest, I'm really grateful for- earlier, I'll go back to it, you know, because by leaving the church and being kind of, not to say ostracized, but like, by that, I don't think I would have, I don't know, I don't think I would be where I'm at now because of that. So I think that was the start of it. Just stepping away, whether you want to call it spirit or whatever that pushed me in this direction, I'm grateful for that, because if not I would be there, still.

Kim: I love that. That is interesting. Do you have any advice for new witches?

Justify: Yes. Oof, here's the book. Boom. I'm just kidding. (both laugh) No, just with people that are coming more and more into themselves... First of all, as a witch, carrying that mantle is what it is. Just knowing that it can be a lonely life, especially if you're walking and you're treading this crooked path, right? It can be lonely and it's not to say pull out my little teeny violin and woe is me, but it is just, you have to be really comfortable and learn to be... I don't want to say empowered, but really... okay with that. And you're going to get uncomfortable because you're so used to people being around you and telling you what to do, and your friends or your family or whatever, your coworkers, but it's a very personal practice. And no matter what they say, it doesn't matter because it's for you, and you don't have to share anything. Even if they ask you, you can respectfully decline and say, hey, thank you for being curious. You know, in a respectful way, tell them, thank you for being curious. I appreciate you asking, but there's just certain things I am not able to divulge to you. And that's it. And if they don't like it, too bad, because it's for you. And so really, you know. And lean into, if you get to an exercise or something that you're doing, like I shared that experience, that terrifies you, you're doing it right. (laughs) You're like, oh my god, no I'm not! But no, you're doing it, I don't want to say right to say right, but I mean...

Kim: You're on the right path.

Justify: You're on the right path, you're doing it right, and if you're scared shitless, you're doing it. And I think that really does set someone else that's like, I don't want to do witchcraft. Okay, great. You don't have to be a witch. You can practice magic and not be a witch. Magic is magic, and witchcraft is magic, but not all magic is witchcraft. So, you know, you can do it and be like, I don't think witchcraft is for me, but I love magic. Great! That's awesome. You know? But if you're like, no, I am a witch. And you know, what you feel deep down inside of you, then great. Just know that this is part of your path, and the discomforts and the darker parts of yourself and exploring it. No one can tell you about it but you, because that's your journey. And that's the beauty of it. It's liberating. That's the liberating part of it. It's scary because no one's telling you what to do. It's you walking it, step by step, terrifying, but liberating because you are walking it and you are doing it for you. And that's all that matters. And by the more that you do it, the more that you really start to see yourself bloom the way that you are meant to be on your own. And it's wonderful. It's like I said, it's scary and you might lose some leaves. Meaning people in your life that you thought were there and they're not. Because they're like, oh you're weird, or you collect bones, like what? You'll know the true people that are going to be in your life if they love you no matter what. Collect bones, pee, piss in jars, whatever. You know what I mean? Like, they're like, I don't understand this and you, but I love you and I'm here for you. And that's it. And you know, like, perfect. That's it. That's all. Just love me. That's it. I don't, I don't need you to have to understand every single thing I do. And I think that's really important, because I think a lot of people are afraid to go down this path because they do feel like they're going to be ostracized by their friends or what they're going to think about them. But that's, that's the thing is if you can mentally and physically get over that and get through that part, you're going to do just fine. It's just getting past what other people think about you or what they're going to say about you, or what your friends are going to think or say. It doesn't matter. It's your practice. It's not their practice, it's your craft. And that's it. And you share what you want. And I think that's a good enough, I think- and really engage in your environment. Like, go out and explore the plants and the flora and the fauna, like, as if you were a brand new to this world. Because like you said, like, I don't really...

Kim: You kind of are.

Justify: Yeah, I don't want to say the term baby witch, but I would say, like, coming more into yourself as a witch, that might be more appropriate. But yeah, you kind of are, exactly like you said. And so come into it with the awe of magic, of like really putting yourself in the mindset of magic, and seeing everything maybe in a different perspective. Yeah. 

Kim: The group that I run around with, the Witch Bitch Amateur Hour group, the thing that they are saying lately is look at it with your vampire eyes. That quote from Anne Rice where Lestat tells Louis, look around with your vampire eyes, because things look different now that he's been changed. That's what you need to do. Look around with your vampire eyes!

Justify: With your witchy eyes.

Kim: Yeah.

Justify:  With your witch's eye. Yeah.

Kim: Oooo, yes.

Justify:  With your witch's eye, yeah. And that's, it's a different lense, literally. Yeah, you're gonna be looked at weird, but embrace it. That being a witch is weird. Like, for those that haven't seen The Craft, like, do it, girl. Like, we are the weirdos. Like, be weird. And it's not to do it to be cool. No, no, no. I'm not saying that.

Kim: I can't even imagine what my neighbors think of me wandering around the yard, looking at dirt and talking to rocks.

Justify: That's the thing. Who knows? They probably like, I don't know what this woman is doing out here talking to plants.

Kim: At night. (laughs)

Justify: Right, right, right, right. So like she is up to something. I don't know. And like for all we know she is. So, but yeah, it's just, the more you embrace your weirdness and your queerness... Also, queer doesn't also mean gay. I think we can go into that. I want to talk on that a little bit. But yeah, like being queer isn't just for gay people or queer people. Like queer, in and of itself, by definition, is just weird or different or strange. So by definition...

Kim: That's why I ID as it. Well, it's one reason.

Justify:  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, your sexual orientation of who you are attracted to is one thing. And, being queer, or queerness in and of itself, by definition is just strange and odd. And not the common, it's the uncommon. And that is saying the queerness within inside yourself as a witch. And I think that's why there's a lot of queer practitioners also in the LGBTQ plus community. But because they relate so much, because being a witch and then also being like queer in the way like gay or bi or whatever, you know, trans, you know. So there's a lot of overlap there, but it's because all of it is in the realm of queerness, of- it's in the realm of othered-ness, you know, and I think that's possibly why I've just also fallen into that realm as well. So.

Kim: This is a fun...

Justify: I love it.

Kim: This is such a good conversation.

Justify: I love it.

Kim: I've enjoyed this conversation so much.

Justify: I've had a great time too. This is awesome. I need this. I like get like stuck in my own little bubbles and things like that. I'm like, I need to just, so I was like, when you said, let's do it, I'm like, let's do it.

Kim: Yay!

Justify: Yeah.

Kim:  Who do you think it would be fun to have on the show to answer these questions or whatever flies out of my mouth?

Justify: Oh, I have, I have a list, gurl. So, well, my co-host, Kane, from my podcast, Satyrs and Sinners, would love him to be on there. He'd do great. And then I would say, if you haven't interviewed them yet, I would say probably Austin and Marshall from BaneXBramble and Southern Bramble. 

Kim: I was ab le to finally talk to them!

Justify: Oh, yay, cool! I haven't seen it yet so I didn't know, but I was like yeah definitely them.

Kim: Yes, I love them.

Justify: I love them. And yeah, so Kane and then... Ooh.

Kim: They might have been, Austin might have been the one. It was either Austin, Marshall, or David from Porous Palms. One of those three recommended I talk to you.

Justify: David did. He sent me, yeah, he sent me, he's like, hey, like, this person, wanted to see if you'd interview. I was like, yeah, sure, totally. So David did. Yeah, he is so sweet. And so I was trying to think, like, I would say, comes to mind, Nicholas Pearson. I think it's Luminous Pearl, or The Luminous Pearl?

Kim: Yes!

Justify:  I don't know if you... they're super knowledgeable and like wisdom and knowledgeable in the realm of the mineral kingdom, especially like you know crystals in general, but the mineral kingdom super knowledgeable so that'd be really cool. Also practicing, a practitioner as well. I was just trying to think, those just came to my mind. I know there's like KitchenToad, they're really interesting, I've chatted with them here and there. I'm just thinking about Instagram people that I actually do chat with. Oooo, the Hermetic Arts on Instagram. I forget his name but he's so sweet, he does a lot of sigil work. Super cool, I think he would be great to talk a little bit about his own  practice.

Kim: Bi and sly?! (laughs)

Justify:  What was it?

Kim: Bi and sly.

Justify: Oh yeah, they're very open about their sexual orientation.

Kim: I absolutely was looking these people up as you were... The last two were the only ones I wasn't following, so yay me for having some sort of idea what's happening in life.

Justify: (gasps) Olivia, oh my god, Olivia.

Kim: Dying, dying, dying to.

Justify: Yeah, Olivia.

Kim: Dying to.

Justify: Yeah. Witch of Wonderlust. Yeah. I want. Yeah. I would love to have her on our podcast. That would be great. I haven't yet, like you said. Yeah, those are like, I mean, the tops I was like thinking about, in the top of my head right now, I'm sure there's, I have a list I could probably maybe later on like send you they'll probably pop in as like we're done. And like yeah, these people It's just at the top of my head. That's that was was there, yeah.

Kim: Send me whatever name you want. Heck yeah. That makes people more likely to say yes, frankly if I'm like such and such that I should ask you.

Justify:  Mmm. Oh! Ooo, just came through. The witch Illumasanti, I believe. Illumasanti. I believe they're non-binary. And they practice Catholicism with witchcraft.

Kim: Oh!

Justify: Right. We had them on our episode three. Actually, we had them back again, I think, in season two. But season one, we had them on episode, I think three, and it's A Body and Blood was the name of the episode. If you guys want to check that out, season one, but A Body and Blood, but they, that was like my first real time to actually like interview someone that is dual faith. And I love that. Cause I like, I struggle with my own religious trauma. So I was like, how do you like, you know, do this? And it was just great to have them on. So that might be really cool for a lot of people out there that are listening that are dual faith or want to be dual faith or maybe grew up in a Christian or Catholic household that even though they might be interested in witchcraft, that maybe they still hold a lot of their traditions and things like that in their Christian home and upbringing and are kind of conflicted. And you definitely can practice both. And I think they have a podcast, I think it's the Red Thread, or something, oh my gosh, I feel like I'm butchering it. The Red Text. The Red Text. Yeah, because the Red Text is like the word of God. So the Red Text, yes, the Red Thread, I don't know where that came from, but the Red Text is what it's called, the podcast. They're great, Voga is their name and love them. Great person. Funny.

Kim: Yay, yay, yay, thank you!

Justify:  Yeah. So that was okay. That was the for I'm sure there's more, but that was those ones that just came through for right now.

Kim: Sweet. Yay. Thank you.

Justify:  You're welcome.

Kim: Is there anything else you wanted to bring up? Anything that I didn't ask, or anything you wanted to ask me?

Justify: I mean, I kind of want to ask some of the similar questions like, you know, your craft and stuff. But I feel like that would be like kind of like a dual interview. (laughs)

Kim: You can interview me if you want, it's cool with me. If you have time I have time.

Justify: I guess like maybe what got you there may be one question I'll say and then, what got you to do the this podcast? Like what brought you to like inspire you?

Kim: Nosiness.

Justify: Oh nosiness that's what it is. Yeah.

Kim: Yeah. I like to I like to know shit and this is how I get people to tell me stuff.

Justify:  That's that's how you do it. That's one way to do it. Mm-hmm Yeah, cool, yeah, I mean also a great way to like meet new people and yeah network but also Just get to learn, you know, and like explore and like... 

Kim: It's been super interesting. It's opened so many doors. Realistically, it was because I have a jewelry business, and I was like, how can I promote my jewelry business? I know, I'll do a podcast, and every week I can say, brought to you by blah, blah, blah. And then it turned out to be something that I actually enjoy, and this has taken the front seat and put the jewelry business in the back seat.

Justify: Yeah, sometimes it's like that.

Kim: It's actually really fun. I like that I am community building and then sharing people... sharing people. It's fun. I like, and I like thinking of people who are secluded, or isolated, and this shows them that there are a million ways to be a witch.

Justify: Hmm. Yeah. There's...

Kim: There's... your way is probably okay.

Justify:  Yeah, it's just really interesting how, you know, people, semantics over semantics, like what is a witch and what's not a witch, and good and bad and evil, and what you should or shouldn't do. And it's like, that's why when, you know, I get asked the question, like, what's, I think that's a great way to put it, like, what is a witch to you? Because there's the more historical, traditional sense of what a witch is, but then I also go into, regardless of the historical, which is still accountable, it's there, but what is a witch to you? And I think that's a really, it's because it's a very personal journey. So again, like I said, I'm not going to tell, I don't have the time, nor do I have the energy to really care or tell anybody what is or what is not. But all I will just say is for those, like I think it's good if you're going to carry the mantle of a witch, I think it is good to learn the roots of it, especially historically the roots of it. And you know, not just like what people have said a witch is, but like actually like do some research and like some reading and looking into take some classes, like, you know, really, really dive in. And you'd be surprised what you find. But and or like what you think a witch was or whatever and you're like wow, like that's actually, you know for those actually, it's really funny. Have you ever seen the show Salem on Hulu?

Kim: I don't know. There's lots of things with that name so I'm not sure what you mean.

Justify: There's a show called Salem and of course like Salem, Massachusetts. So like it's pretty much it's essentially like based on The Witch Trials. It's a TV show so of course there's gonna be drama. But they, I feel like I've seen it once all the way through, and then I've like started kind of re-watching it again because you miss things like the first time.

Kim: Yeah.

Justify:  And it's three seasons, and it's from verbatim of the, like, documented historical aspects of what a witch is or does. They threw, they put it all in there, to the, you know, the witch's sabbat, to the flying, the flying ointments, to the witch's devil, to, you know, of course, like the hag and the Puritans, and like the hangings and the burnings and the stonings and the witch, I was going to say the, like the witch scares, I guess, like everybody's scared that you're, say you just like point to one person and...

Kim: The Satanic Panic?

Justify: Right, but yeah, but like back then, their version of the satan, like back then, like the, and so they would just burn or kill anybody that was like different. Usually they weren't even a witch. And actually in the show, the main character, Mary Sibley, she's kind of like the sort of like head of them all, but not really. She just, she found her way into like the whole village of being, she's like the main witch that like no one suspects is a witch because part of also being a witch, and their powers, is to obfuscate, or to conceal or to hide, or to redirect focus and attention. And so a lot of the things is they would redirect. When it would get too close to the actual actual witches that are witches, they would, for survival so that they don't die or get burned, they would redirect the accusations and things like that to other innocent, quote-unquote, innocent people. And then they would get burned or hung or whatever, and they weren't actually witches. They just were a little off, and it was just easy for the witches, the actual witches, to redirect the focus onto them and stay alive. Which is really interesting. I was like, that's really, that's powerful. That's really cool.

Kim: That's like that curse where all you do is tell people you're going to curse them and then ignore them. And then they're like, holy fuck, everything bad that happened to me is her fault!

Justify: Yeah, that is. But in a way, if you think about it, it is a curse.

Kim: Yeah, especially if you're really paranoid. 

Justify: Yeah, that's part of like the witch craze. And like it works, excuse me, it works because it works like you know I mean like If you want someone to go mad, you know what I mean? I mean you could do like actual like craft, and like craft something to maybe make them go crazy or whatever. Like make them go mad, you know in their way like in the mind. You can add maybe like make a poppet and like say a charm over it and or a curse over it, and make them go confused or mad.

Kim: That's a lot of work.

Justify: It is a lot of work.

Kim: But then you could do it the other way.

Justify:  Yeah, and then it can be very just direct in their face, you know, or it's kind of like the, I don't want to say scare tactic, but kind of like scaring them into that they're cursed and then they believe it and then they're cursed, you know, and so they undo it. I feel like that might be a whole other thing, but like curse work and hexes, like some people that are following, like that follow traditionally, I guess that follow Wicca, I'm not a Wiccan. Some people ask me that, like, oh my God, you're Wiccan. I'm like, nope. I'm a witch. I'm not a Wiccan.

Kim: People think they're the same.

Justify: Oh, they're both witches, right? So every, all Wiccans are witches, but not all witches are Wiccan.

Kim: I've had to explain the words.

Justify: Because it's a specific path of-

Kim: It's a religion.

Justify: Right, exactly. And so I'm not super familiar with Gardnerian or Alexandrian Wicca, but I do know, like, some of them do believe in the law of three and what you do comes back to you. But as a witch, it's not about that. You need something to get done. You gotta do what you gotta do.Especially if it's- Now, like I said, I'm not over here slinging curses left and right, but if someone's trying to, I have a friend of mine, she works at a bar downtown and that's her job. She has had guys harass her and she works at a bar and she gets off at like 3 o'clock, 2, 3 o'clock in the morning, walking to her car by herself. She has to be on the phone always, so that way in case something happens. And she's had already interactions with guys that are a little questionable. So yeah, I mean, making her something that might be for protection or whatnot is great. Because at the end of the day, or if she needs to enact, and act in herself to protect herself, yeah, do it.

Kim: Absolutely.

Justify: Because they're not holding themselves accountable of consent and things like that. They're just gonna do what they want. And who else is gonna do it but the witch? So that's how I kind of view, it varies depending on degree of like, do you want them to like trip and fall, or I don't know, like straight up put them six feet under the ground. So it just depends on what you want to happen. But at the end of the day, everything in nature has the right to defend itself. And we are part of that. We're not separate as much as we think we are. And also I am Justify again, for those that are listening, you can find me at Justifysjujus on Instagram. And also my main page, which I'm switching over, is you can find me at JustifiesJujus. That's gonna be my now business page. At one point, I had them all together for my personal and business or professional page, but now I'm actually shifting them. So now the JustifysJujus page, which has always been, will just be just for my professional stuff. And then I have my personal page, which you guys are more than welcome to follow me on, it's just Justin_Townes0316 and that's my my personal page which has a lot of more of my other stuff on. But both of those are my two will be like my two main like pages. But if you guys just want to follow just my professional page or justifysJujus please do so. And justifysjujus.com for my website. And oh and check out on Spotify if y'all got it, Satyrs and Sinners. So like Satyr, like a Satyr, S-A-T-Y-R, Satyr in plural. So Satyrs, S-A-T-Y-R-S, and then Satyrs and Sinners. I think instead of A N D it's the ampersand. Yeah, and I think there's there's two seasons so far. We've had a lot of shifts in our life and we're getting back to it slowly, but you guys can check out what we currently have now. I think that's it. I don't have any other like...

Kim: Do you offer readings and shadow work, I saw.

Justify: I do offer readings, shadow work sessions, readings, and as a practicing herbalist I do offer herbal consultations. Everything is, pretty much mostly everything comes starts off as a consultation. I don't really do any kind of like, in the moment like sounds, like well I have a stomach ache what could you give me?  like very allopathic. Like I will pretty much more than likely be asking questions. So just know that there are going to be consultations first. But yeah, feel free to, on my website, you can book them there, or if you feel more comfortable through my Instagram, can contact me there or email at justifiesjujus.com, definitely, at gmail.com, sorry, justifiesjujus at gmail.com. And yeah, so if you have questions about that, definitely contact me. And I'm actually in the process right now of, I have a Shopify, but it's available, it's actually on my business page, JustifysJujus Instagram, so you can access my Shopify there. And I do have, I sell some live cutting plants and seeds that you can purchase there. Some of them like datura and patchouli that I grow myself. I can do like live cuttings. This one's a Java patchouli. It's like a variety of patchouli, but it smells amazing. It smells like new money. And you know how new money has like a smell to it? You get like a fresh dollar bill that's like just printed. It's like what it smells like, the leaves and the flower. Yeah, so it smells amazing. Obviously, then you maybe could do that in working for prosperity and financial work. But and then I also have some products up there. I can make custom, like I was mentioning earlier, custom spirit houses or effigies of the sort for people. If they want to work with specific spirit that they're working with, I can make the vessel, or if they want an effigy of a someone, I can do that. So it's customizable. So yeah, I have that on there, and then I'm releasing a collection soon. Stay in tune for that. I know as we get into the cooler season, that's probably when I'll officially launch it, but they're there. You can actually purchase. They're available, the individual ones, but I'm actually going to release an actual, like a box together. And there's like six pieces to it.

Kim: Cool!

Justify: Yeah. So, so yeah, it's little stuff here and there. Yeah.

Kim:  Nice!

Justify: Yeah.

Kim:  Now at the end, I ask you for two things.

Justify:  Okay.

Kim: Thing number one, recommend something to the listeners. It does not have to be witchcraft related.

Justify: Ooh, recommend. I guess kind of what we're on this journey right now is as the season comes, like, really challenge yourself to, I know it's like cliche, but like really dive deeper into you, like knowing thyself, like asking and questioning yourself and reflecting on yourself. Not to the extent of detriment where you're like, you know, having a full on crisis, but to the extent of, if it's a little uncomfortable and you touch something, you know, just give yourself some grace, you know, again, cause those are the things that are going to be that. So I guess a little mini shadow work in there too, but then you'll find that you'll realize like, Oh, like this is me. And you're like, yeah. And then you'll kind of sink into that. And then you'll feel a lot more, you'll gain something from it. You'll feel a lot more empowered through it. So that's the one thing I guess I recommend for this new season is this, as we go into the day becomes less, and the night becomes more prevalent, that just challenge yourself to go deeper into knowing you, especially the parts of you that you didn't even realize were there.

Kim: Awesome. Now the last thing is... you go ahead.

Justify: Oh no no no that's what I was going to say, what you were going to say. (both laugh)

Kim: The last thing is please tell me a story.

Justify: This is a story all about how my life got flipped turned upside down, and I'd like to take a minute to sit right there, and tell you how I became the prince of a town called Bel-Air. Dooo doo...

Kim: Oh, yes. I love that. Yes.

Justify: Oh, a story. I can tell you another story experience. This will be this will be it then. The story that I had of my on the topic of the craft. So I had an experience. Oh, this one's, this one's... I might do two little mini stories because they're kind of small. So, okay, there's a book called The Clovenstone Workings that I am still working through it because it's more of like a manual than it is like a read, but you can read through it but it's definitely more manualistic to traditional, like old-world traditional witchcraft I guess you could say. And so there is a technique in there that it's like one of the big first techniques that you do is called profane scrying. And the purpose for it is to, I guess you could say, like see and also interact with your other, which is sort of like, some people might consider it like your shadow or your fetch or your other, like the other, like that part of you that you actually can work with to also have do, like, you know, retrieve information, do workings for you, I guess, in that way, shape, or form, but also to interact with it. And it's very simple, the technique is simple. And I did it. And I was, I think going into it also without expectation is what I felt like brought me my success was just going and doing it, not thinking about what it should be or what it shouldn't be, just do it. And just see what happens, you know, curious but just see what happens. And I think that's what allowed me to be more successful with the technique. You know, and so I didn't, I was like, oh my god, I don't know what to expect, but I'm gonna do it. When I did it, it scared... I was telling my friend Juju earlier, I was like, it scared the living crap out of me. Essentially, you're using it to scry just, using a regular mirror. I use a standing mirror, but you can use a mirror of any kind, in a dark room with no disctraction, no phone, no computer, no TV, no other person but you, and a candle. And you kind of put it off to the side. And I can't go in detail too much about how to, but those are what you need. And pretty much I was sitting there relaxed in front of the mirror, looking at me, at myself in the mirror, and just sitting there relaxed, and relaxing further and further and further. And then my vision started shifting and then it started to become, it was clear but yet foggy at the same time. But like what looked like me, or what I thought was me, started to disappear or like disapparate. And slowly started to reappear. And what I was or what I saw was, I don't, I'm more dry by nature by like my body, like I don't get like clammy or sweaty often, but my hands immediately, I felt this like surge of energy in my hands, it was like cold. And it was like my spine and then my hands got like cold and clammy and wet and I was, fear struck me immediately and I saw like my eyes were not there. It was like pinpoints of like what could have been light from the maybe from the candle and my mouth looked-

Kim: Oh, I hate it. I hate it!

Justify: Ugh! My mouth looked like, like the skin, there was no teeth, but it looked like the skin of my lips was stretched and formed within (Kim makes skeeved sounds) almost like stitched together, sort of, but was open. And I had skin, my skin was there, but it was very skeletal. It was almost hollow for a moment. And I immediately turned and looked away and looked back, and it was me again. When I look at myself in a mirror, and I was like, whoa. And then I like, I was like, you know what, I want to do it again. And I stood there and I did it again. And the same thing happened, the vision shifted, and then it came back. And so, and then, I can't go into too much detail, because if you're curious, read the book, there's the technique there. But ...

Kim: Ijust added it to my wish list as you were describing it.

Justify: Yeah. Profane scrying or seeing the dead, your dead faces or the dead faces, what they call it. And it can look different for everybody, but there's a lot of similar crossovers of it. But that was a story that really also set me on to continuing and furthering my own journey of myself, and reflecting into that. And I thought that was really a unique experience. And then I had another experience. Like I went to bed one night, and I think I did do like just like a little offering to the witch father or some people, like the witch father, like the master of spirits. And went to bed and I had the candle maybe, that's my, because I had I keep like a my altar keep like a pillar candle like lit when I do, just because I keep it there for them and went to bed no problem, and I woke up in my dream in my room. So, I mean, for all I know, like, I don't know, I was like, maybe I left my body. I don't know. But I woke up in my room the way I left it when I went to bed. And, but my door to my room was open and no, and, but there was no door actually. It was just open. It was just like, it was dark. And this goes a little bit, I'm just going to be vulnerable, it shares a little bit about my relationship with my mother, our dynamics of boundaries and things like that, which has taught me a lot living with them, and being able to, which part of my witchcraft, I think that has helped me a lot, is asserting myself and forming my boundaries, which is still a continual practice, but I think with living with family and of any kind can be difficult. So I had to assert my boundaries and my room is very private. I only let certain people in. It's just my space, you know. So my mom never really respected that. And you know, through the dream, I saw her trying to come through. The threshold was open, like my door, was my door was open. She was trying to get in like she usually does, like she... Not anymore, it's changed since then. But she's like come in my room, put stuff in there like, I'd come in I'm like, why is things moved around? I'm like, what is why is this on my bed? Like, you know things like that. I'm just like what? and I'm like, it's only her like, you know, I mean, so And I'm like, we're just like certain things I just I just kind of felt like it was more of like an invasion of privacy, and I just I I needed, I need something that's for me, and you know. Like you don't have to put my mail on my bed, you just leave it out in the kitchen. Things like that, and I have to explain that. And I just had to lay some boundaries, because I didn't have any. And so going back to the dream, and then growing up Christian, so my mom's Christian. I stood at the door, at the threshold, I walked over to the threshold that was open, and she was trying to get in, but she couldn't get in, but she was trying to get in. And she couldn't, even though it was open. I kind of felt like, I stood back a little bit because it kind of felt like she had that still power over me, of like, because I'm her son or whatever, things like that, and I just kind of felt that there in that moment. And then all of a sudden, as I'm looking into the hallway from the door where she is, and trying to get into my room, behind me, I felt this like presence. And immediately, not a whisper, but I guess kind of in a way I was like, I heard the word just to tell, to say, I knew that she's like, not afraid of the devil, but I feel like a lot of people, when you hear the word devil, there's a primal fear because of religion and things like that. But I said, well, you know what, if that's what it comes down to, to get her out of my room, I'm going to say it. So I said it like three times, but it wasn't fast. It was like, devil. And I would look at her, and then I'd say it again, like devil. And then I'd say it a third time, and by the third time, each time I said it, she would like kind of shrink almost, like shrink down, like almost in size and like, and like backing away in fear and retreating into like kind of like her room. And, and the third time when I said it, I was like, yes. And I just overcome with it. And I felt at that moment that, I guess, whoever he was, he was there, he, they, the master, came through to me and allowed me to feel strong and empowered in myself to create a boundary that is necessary for my own space and protection. And, you know, yeah, if she's afraid of it, that's her own personal thing, but I needed to do it for me and it worked. And ever since then, my relationship in that way with my mom as far as boundaries, living in the same space, has gotten a lot better. There's still little things, but it's gotten a lot better since then. And I think maybe because of the, I do have words, so that's probably why in the dream realm that she couldn't get in, actually through my door. But even then she tried. So that was also another story that I have.

Kim: And that's why I love witchcraft. 

Justify: Right. And it made me feel strong. It made me feel powerful, but not in the way of like abusive, but  powerful in my own self, powerful. Like I had, like, it made me feel like I had a, it made me feel like I had a stance in myself and made me feel like I had a say, it made me feel like I am allowed to be here, you know what I mean? And that's what I felt from that.

Kim:  I love it.

Justify: Yeah. Thank you.

Kim:  I love that. That's what I love, that  that's what it gives us.

Justify: Yeah, and that's what I got from that. And whether he spoke through me or was through me or gave me that power in that moment, that's what happened and that's what I got. And that's why I do what I do. Like I said, there's still a lot, you know, way more I'm still journeying down this path, and it's not a linear path. If you're looking for linearity in your life, maybe witchcraft is not for you. (Kim laughs) Just saying. If you're a linear person, like this and this and that, I'm like, you're going to struggle. If you are doing witchcraft, you are going to struggle, but you're going to struggle in a good way because it's actually going to teach you that the nature of things are not linear. Roots do not grow just straight out. They curl and they twirl and they, you know, go grow into other things and twist in knots...

Kim: Through stuff.

Justify: Right. Through stuff, right. So if you're like linear... maybe it is for you if that person is willing to like learn it, but if they're really like resisting, like they're like, I just need linear, I can't do this. Then yeah, witchcraft is not for everybody. It's not for everybody. I'm not telling anybody that they're not a witch, I'm just saying it's just not a path for everybody.

Kim: It's going to be a struggle. It's going to be, and that's part of being forged by it. It's like a forging. You're being forged.

Kim: Ooh, I love it.

Justify: Yasss, forged by the flame. Yeah.

Kim: Well, thanks for being on the show!

Justify: Thanks for inviting me. This was amazing. I appreciate you.

Kim:Yay! I had a really good time.

Justify: Thank you. I appreciate that. This was awesome. The wonderful questions, super amazing host, and yeah, this was awesome.

Kim: Aw, thanks!

Justify: You're welcome.

Kim: Okay, then I will see you over on Instagram. Bye!

Justify: Yay, bye! Have a good night, hon. Take care!

Kim: So welcome to the weird part.

Justify: Yes, I love that.

Kim: (laughs) What's your favorite quote? (fades out)

Justify: (fades in) So like, but you know, what's before birth? And I don't think many people really venture into that.  Like, where were you before you were born? What were you before you were born? Where did you come from before you were birthed here? You know, and I think I'm wondering if all of that knowledge that's like passed down, or brought to, it's like you have this as a child because you are connected. (fades out)

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